Harnesses or don't use harnesses if no roll bar
#46
The Penguin King
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Mike, I am not trying to be the prophet of gloom and doom here. I just want people to be aware of their decisions. A harness bar and 4 point belts are not the right setup. A harness bar designed with the strength to properly mount the belts (or more preferably a roll bar), racing seats with proper belt holes and 5/6 point belts with properly mounted subs is the NEXT step up from a stock car. There is no intermediate step.
With respect to the compromise made with using a street car, it certainly seems to be one we all run into as we get faster & more experienced. Personally, I can't see having more than a harness bar with five/six point harnesses in a car that serves dual purpose. Once you go to a roll bar or more, it's a track car. I also agree with the comment about r-compunds on a dual purpose car. Probably better to just live with the limitations of your car than put race tires on a dual-purpose un-caged car.
mdrums -- I completely understand the issue of both the cost and the logistics of having a second track-only car. I'm laying out the ground work for what I hope is a track dedicated car in the future. It's made more complicated for you by the need for a tiptronic. FWIW, older boxters, are now pretty affordable, as are even early year 996's, which can be had in the 20's. Both are available with tips. Storage can be found. Talk to the racers, & you'll get some ideas. As far as a tow vehicle, my solution in the future will probably be to rent a pickup truck for track weekends. At least around my part of the world this is doable. Beats having to own one as far as I'm concerned.
#47
Rennlist
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Sell the 997S, buy two Boxster S's (or one S for the track, one non-S for the Street) w/Tiptronic or two 99 996's, set one up with full track safety gear. I went a route similar to that because I only wanted to spend "so much" on this hobby too. Didn't really work out for me but theoretically it's a good move.
Limerock with CVR on April 5
Summit with Potomac April 12-13
Limerock with PDA April 19
Limerock with CVR April 24
Limerock Club Race April 25-26
Limerock with CVR/HCR on May 1
Watkins with HCR (Cups and Saucers) May 14-15?
Watkins Club Race May 30-31 and June 1
Pick one!
Summit with Potomac April 12-13
Limerock with PDA April 19
Limerock with CVR April 24
Limerock Club Race April 25-26
Limerock with CVR/HCR on May 1
Watkins with HCR (Cups and Saucers) May 14-15?
Watkins Club Race May 30-31 and June 1
Pick one!
__________________
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
#49
Rennlist Member
Hey... You want safety rules? Here's one Noel will like. How bout NO R-
COMPOUND TIRES until at LEAST one year after sign off? How much safer will better drivers be? I'd rather have a skilled driver hauling *** with nothing but a helmet and his wits than an ignorant one hauling *** with a full system.
COMPOUND TIRES until at LEAST one year after sign off? How much safer will better drivers be? I'd rather have a skilled driver hauling *** with nothing but a helmet and his wits than an ignorant one hauling *** with a full system.
#50
Race Director
Sell the 997S, buy two Boxster S's (or one S for the track, one non-S for the Street) w/Tiptronic or two 99 996's, set one up with full track safety gear. I went a route similar to that because I only wanted to spend "so much" on this hobby too. Didn't really work out for me but theoretically it's a good move.
Actually I have put a lot of thought into this and maybe soon I will work something out and either a 2005 997S with Tip will get cheap enought or a 2003-04 BMW M3 with seq shift tranny will work...but...I enjoy the Porsche and want to stay with that.
#51
Race Director
Oh and about the R-Comps....I bought a set of track wheels and Toyou R1's because that way is cheaper than replacing the stock super expensive street tires. To be honest I have as much fun on street tires than the Toyo RA1's...if I could get street tires as cheaper than the RA1's I'd go that route probably.
#52
This thread caught my attention. With my 993, the first mods I made were rollbar, seats, harnesses, and hans. I ran this way with track tires for a year before I replaced my well worn M030 suspension at stock height. Now, I made good on a long time promise to myself and bought an early Ferrari 360 coupe. Problem with that car is, hardly anyone changes them from stock (or really tracks them), and mounting steel rollbars/harness bars is a very big job. So, I am looking at mounting a one piece seat, and fabricating a harness bar to mount harnesses to. I would be very grateful (pretty please) to the experts if you wouldn't mind looking at the thread I started asking for advice on how to do it:
https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-and-drivers-education-forum/414031-need-help-designing-a-harness-bar-and-seat-mounts-f360.html
As for the 993, I plan to go ahead and convert it the rest of the way to run in G stock, or sell it to go 996 in H with all the safety equipment neccessary, and then continue to do DE's with my friends in the 360.
https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-and-drivers-education-forum/414031-need-help-designing-a-harness-bar-and-seat-mounts-f360.html
As for the 993, I plan to go ahead and convert it the rest of the way to run in G stock, or sell it to go 996 in H with all the safety equipment neccessary, and then continue to do DE's with my friends in the 360.
#53
Intermediate
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Jackson, NJ
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I went with GT3 seats with 6 pt harness. Also purchased a roll bar with a removable center because I need storage in the back seat for those 3 day Watkins Glen trips! I agree safety is first and anything you can do to provide safety to yourself is number one.
#55
Race Director
Imdrums -- I completely understand the issue of both the cost and the logistics of having a second track-only car. I'm laying out the ground work for what I hope is a track dedicated car in the future. It's made more complicated for you by the need for a tiptronic. FWIW, older boxters, are now pretty affordable, as are even early year 996's, which can be had in the 20's. Both are available with tips. Storage can be found. Talk to the racers, & you'll get some ideas. As far as a tow vehicle, my solution in the future will probably be to rent a pickup truck for track weekends. At least around my part of the world this is doable. Beats having to own one as far as I'm concerned.
#58
Rennlist Member
I think that's a really unfair blanket statement. I think you could just about universally say that driving on the street without a helmet in a car with a rollcage is dangerous. However, a rollbar (IE a 4pt device) which is entirely contained in the backseat is really not an unsafe option for a daily driven car. However, this of course means nobody can ever safely sit in the REAR seats, but the front two are fair game. This is just a generalization though as each rollbar and car configuration is different - for example though I dont daily drive my BMW, it has a 4pt rollbar with 6pt harnesses and proper FIA seats. Under daily driving conditions, my head is well away from the top section of the rollhoop which is padded with the new dual-density foam padding (which isnt a get out of jail free card, but every bit counts).
#59
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Russ Murphy
The reality is that the answer is just as scant as the statement it is directed at. The former is a blanket statement of black & white directed at a grey subject. The comment gives short shrift to the actual danger that this can present.
For instance, if you think that because your roll bar is 12" away from your head, and well padded, that it cannot present a danger to you in a street accident, you are ignorant (and I mean that constructively, not derogetorily).
It is neither necessarily dangerous, nor completely safe, and you have to understand what really can happen in a crash before you can make an informed decision as to whether you can live with (literally and figuratively) the compromise that your setup presents.
#60
Ahem;
The reality is that the answer is just as scant as the statement it is directed at. The former is a blanket statement of black & white directed at a grey subject. The comment gives short shrift to the actual danger that this can present.
For instance, if you think that because your roll bar is 12" away from your head, and well padded, that it cannot present a danger to you in a street accident, you are ignorant (and I mean that constructively, not derogetorily).
It is neither necessarily dangerous, nor completely safe, and you have to understand what really can happen in a crash before you can make an informed decision as to whether you can live with (literally and figuratively) the compromise that your setup presents.
The reality is that the answer is just as scant as the statement it is directed at. The former is a blanket statement of black & white directed at a grey subject. The comment gives short shrift to the actual danger that this can present.
For instance, if you think that because your roll bar is 12" away from your head, and well padded, that it cannot present a danger to you in a street accident, you are ignorant (and I mean that constructively, not derogetorily).
It is neither necessarily dangerous, nor completely safe, and you have to understand what really can happen in a crash before you can make an informed decision as to whether you can live with (literally and figuratively) the compromise that your setup presents.
Considering all that has been thoughtfully written on this subject, the "blanket" statement about rollbar safety in a street car is indicative of little thought and/or not reading this or any other thread on the topic.