dwe8922

I know this is slightly OT, but I recently bought a Ferrari 360, and am one of the very rare birds who actually wants to track it. I've tried several times to get help over on Ferrarichat, and there's just not as much knowledge as to track prep. And, nobody makes one, of course. Please help!

Anyway, the 360's main problem in doing this kind of thing is that its all aluminum, and you can't just weld in anchoring/bolstering points, and bolting in supports is a big no no due to galvanic corrosion. There are only two mfg's I know of that make a roll bar for the 360, and both require you allow them to do the install due to liability. The cost is very high, and most dealers (challenge teams even) won't touch this sort of thing due to liability. I found some info on this when the challenge stradales came out, but most owners aborted the idea as the cost to do a bar, seats, and harnesses was costing about $10k.

The 360 has four mounting bolts for the stock seat rail in the floor, and the rear mounts actually have 3 threaded inserts to choose from on each side. I am looking at fabricating two flat bars like the challenge car setup pictured(see pdf link at bottom) to mount a slider and side mount to so I can mount a one piece seat. I can tie in the sub straps to the bar like in the challenge pic, and bolt in eyebolts to the side mounts, sandwhiching in the stock 3 point belt at the same time.

I'm afraid the roll bar would require more change to the car than I'm willing, so I want to do a harness bar. Some euro 360's have the plates/certs welded into the firewall to attach eyebolts, but no US cars do. The problem with a simple bar going across is that the rear third of the head rest blocks the bars path, so it would have to be offset rearward. Also, the shoulder mount is one of the up/down adjustable kind, and has some play in it. So, a friend sent me info on the bar design pictured. It's a Dali Racing bar for the NSX(same aluminum mono), and it incorporates the rear seat mounting bolts. What do you think?

Thanks for helping!

DarkSideDE

Hey David -- have you contacted the Ferrari Club? Every year in October you can find them at Roebling Road - maybe you could Kaye a call at the track and find out who is the organizer for this years.

I was there last year - got to pick up a Ferrari for a week - what a trip!

Place was full of really good people and all I can say is they all seemed to be having a wonderful time and getting in lots of track time.

Also, a good PCA member to contact about Ferraris would be Duncan McPherson - he use to have a twin turbo F40 - which a year or two ago he traced in for -- sorry, can't remember the model number -- but I saw it when it was 4 days old and - oh, what a beautiful and unusual shade of blue - sort of like the Bentley's light blue...but richer.

One of these guys can help - but you might want to get other opinions on the Ferrari chat...

doc2s

talk to classic coach i think it's a $600 job to get pickup points made for the shoulder belts.

dwe8922

I instructed for the FCA event last October. I was looking then, and wanted to see if the 360 was the best fit for me. I met a lot of nice people, and got to ride in a lot of different cars which helped a lot in my purchase. One of the guys I worked with got so excited about tracking again, he has since sold his 360 spider, and bought an early coupe like mine. We've become good friends, and are both planning to attend your event in May. I know Duncan. He was actually the instructor the signed me off to solo. Great guy. I think he traded for a 430 spider, which is the replacement for my car. I doubt he has looked into harnesses for it, but he may know of someone with that knowledge. Do you have a contact for him you could email me? I've been to a few FCA events since then, and it seems people either leave the aluminum cars stock, or they go get a challenge car, not much in between! See you in May!

doc2s, I have heard of Classic Coach, and will call them Monday. Do you have a name of someone that would be a good person to talk to about it?

Thanks!

doc2s

david, i don't have a contact person at CC. good luck.

chrisp

The NSX bar is pretty creative. I don't think the two inboard mounting points on the floor are doing anything.

If there's a way to tie your bar to the rearward point it would make that design a lot stronger. You could even use a piece of webbing with a ratchet (although not very Ferrari-esque) to tension it up.

As your bar is going to need to be offset to the rear maybe there's something you can attach that rests on the rear parcel shelf to keep the bar from rotating under load. If you could do that you might even be able to skip four point mounting all together.

chrisp

Here's another way of doing what I was talking about. This harness bar is two-point mounted and the extra sheet metal uses the b-pillar as support to keep it from rotating downward under load.

dwe8922

On the NSX bar, the added inboard mounting points are there to make lap belt mounting points; you can see in the picture they are attaching lap belts there since I think many were still using the stock seat so they needed a lap belt attachment point.

Here are two pics of what the firewall looks like. The small tabs (4) on the upper middle are just holes for the plastic tabs that attach the leather package shelf. The bracket looking thing w/ 2 holes to the left is the attachment for a baby seat (I know, I've never seen a baby seat in a Ferrari before). This is similar to what the factory places for their rollbar, and the challenge car for the cage. Problem is that any welding in the car requires removal of all the ecus, interior, and likely the engine. The holes around the access hole are also a possibility, but I don't think they are very strong, as they are just meant to hold the panel in place.

chrisp

that yellow/black broomstick looking thing in the red car gives me an idea. Can you run something inside the engine bay that will span the firewall opening? You could though bolt it on either side of the opening and then connect to that.

Is it an option to run without the trim panel in place when you're using harnesses? That'll make things easier.

I'm a little surprised that there isn't something more substantial between you and the engine compartment than a leather covered panel.

dwe8922

The broomstick looking thing is a giant breaker bar to remove the pulley from the crank. It's not attached. It's a picture from when my friend at FOA was doing the belt service. The removable panel is actually an aluminum piece thats not in the picture. The leather covering is just for show.

RedlineMan

Hey;

I can't tell if all three of the bars pictured in your initial post are the same one?

Anyway, first point; you should never interupt the side tubes. Since they are the main strength of the unit, they need to be one piece, with the belt bar welded between them.

That design might make a good starting point. If you had the room, you might create a beam structure out of these side tubes by running a straight tube between the top and bottom mounting areas, and then webbing it to create a triangular beam of a sort. This would add tremendous bending stiffness if a forward load were entered into the belt bar.

I have no drawing utility here or I'd draw you up a quick pic.

Also, the idea of putting something in the engine bay and coming through the firewall is a good one. I've done that with 914s.
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dwe8922

John, Yes, they are all the same bar. Those pictures are directly off the Dali website. The picture with it laying flat shows the short angled portions slightly angled upwards, and the lap belts attached to the ends of the bottom horizontal bar.

I've attached a very simple drawing as a word doc of what I think you are suggesting. I think you mean (on each side) using one solid long tube attaching to the floor, and then a forward triangle projecting out from the long tube (one side of the triangle) and also from the cross tube at the intersection point with the long tube(other side of the triangle). I wish I knew a better way to draw this out on top of a picture. By "webbing" I think you mean making 2 forward/more horizontal sides of the triangle with the 3rd side being vertical (made up of the vertical long tube).

What do you think of making a seat mount like the pdf of the 360 Challenge car seat I posted above, and here? Doing that forces me to bolt the sub belts to the seat rails. Also, I am thinking of drilling a hole into the seat side mount brackets, and the bolt the stock belts with eyebolts, allowing me use of the stock belts, and to attachment points for the harness lap belts.

I also looked into running struts through the firewall, but besides cutting into the car, I would have to go right through one of the structural portions of the firewall

Thanks!

RedlineMan

David;

I can't open the word file at my current location. I'm suggesting taking the bent side tube and sending a straight tube between the upper and lower mounting points, then putting in some stringers in between these tubes to create a triangular side beam. Like a ladder beam in the cieling of an industrial building.

As for belt mounting, I don't have a problem with mounting them to seat structures as long as you can really rely on the exisiting seat mounts in the floor to be solid enough. I would try and avoid mounting to the seat mounting assemblies themsevles. In other words, go for a mount as close to the chassis as possible. I'd further probably try and mount the race belts to the exisiting OE belt mount holes, and put the street belts on the new seat-based mounts if possible. Use the ones closest to the chassis for the most severe usage, i.e. track.

From that PDF it looks like they consider the beam behind the headrest as a structural member. I'd look at that closely before trying to reinvent the wheel. If it is really strong enough, that is... If it's like the same area in a 914, it wouldn't hold a lunch box!

dwe8922

Hi John,
Classis Coach NJ, who does a lot of Ferrari Challenge work, said when they mount harness shoulder belts, they take a specially coated steel plate(doesn't react w/ the aluminum) with eyebolt threads, sandwich it between 2 pieces of aluminum, and weld that to the firewall; then they just screw an eyebolt into that. They said the firewall is strong, and they locate the plates based on being 2" below the drivers shoulders, rather than going to that horizontal truss like the factory does. He said the factory mounts a plate inside that truss, and then welds another horizontal piece on top of the truss pictured (running the full horizontal length) for the roll cage to mount to. I don't think I would be comfortable welding that sandwich piece just anywhere on the firewall, but maybe on the plain horizontal truss of the stock car like the diagram I've attached. What do you think of this practice, and what do you think of it compared to the harness bar route? My hesitation with the harness bar is the Bpillar attachment points are the up/down adjustable type, and there is play in it.
Also pictured is a Sparco harness bar. They don't actually make on for the 360, but there is someone (haven't been able to find him) that had one his 360 and either found one for another car that fit, or modified it. It looks like a pretty good design to me to model one after if I go that route. Thankyou for your help!

David

RedlineMan

Hey;

The belt bar pictured looks like a Subaru. I'm not crazy about these attaching to the B-pillar of a 4 door sedan. Those pillars are not that strong even though I know the factory belts do attach to them. I'd like to see a strut going rearward to the same rear shoulder belt pivot point, loaded in tension to send the load back instead of solely a compression load into the B-pillar. I'd also like to see larger struts down to the lower mount points.

I would probably explore doing a sandwich arrangement. I'd look on the other side of that firewall for a spot to mount a full width tube at the proper height. I'd them probably drill and bolt it to the back side of the firewall. I'd then drill and bolt my eye bolts to it in the proper location. The ends of the bar do not necessarily need to attach to anything. You would be using the entire length of that rear panel for strength. if a forward belt load were entered into that panel, it would have to collapse the inner side skirts inward, which would obviously not happen easily. This might be the easiest and least invasive way to get a good mount.

Having said all that... I'd really need to see the car to know.