DarkSideDE

Okay - I have someone next to me that helps organize our DEs. I would like to share his opinion. Here goes:

We do not encourage heel/toe at Driver Education programs for the following reasons
1. Not all cars are created equal. Pedal heights are different in cars and the distance from the brake to the gas pedal varies in cars. Unless you have a car where the brake level height has been adjusted so that you have a comfortable relationship between the brake and gas pedal heights - it becomes cumbersome to attempt the heel and toe in many of the cars used for DEs. These are not race prepared cars. Many are daily drivers.
2. If the car is not built or set up to deal properly with heel/toe you could create a dangerous situation with someone entering a curve at high speed trying to heel/toe in a car that is not properly set up to heel/toe. If the foot should slip you could over-rev an engine - or worse, spin the car out causing an accident.
Therefore we train people to be sure they have done all their shifting prior ot entering the turn. Now this may slow down their time - a fraction of a second - but keep in mind that a DE is not a race to try to find out how fast you can go around the track in comparison to other cars but how smoothly you can take the line around the track. If one wants to get into competitive driving then we would encourage them to go to a racing school or master the technique at some special training, rather than at a DE with many cars on the track.

BTW - we've been known for a slogan at our DEs - it is "The safety of all -- not the fun of one."

Larry Herman

Unless you have mistated it, this is completely wrong. The purpose of heel/toe downshifting is to get the car into the proper lower gear BEFORE entering the turn. It is the lack of this ability that creates the dangerous situations with drivers trying to stuff it into a lower gear while ENTERING a corner, or riding the clutch into the corner, letting it out after they have gotten off of the brakes.

VaSteve

What kind of cars are you talking about...sports cars? I adjusted the pedal hight of both my Porsche to perfect the technique, but aren't most modern cars set up very well to do this? My DD BMW appears to be set up *perfect* for it...if it wasn't an automatic (shame on me...)

H/T is one of the things that makes DEing fun. I can't do it well on the street, since there's usually things like curbs and other cars that discourage "using all of the road", but on the track it's one of the things that make it fun. I think to not introduce it engenders a culture of stomp and steerers. IMHO.

mglobe

Over the years I've owned the following cars with standard transmissions:

One Datsun
Two Hondas
Two Saabs
Three Porsche's

I've heel/toe down-shifted all of these cars without needing any special pedal adjustment. Could they have been set up better for heel/toe? Probably. Did you need to change the setup in order to heel/toe? No.

sjanes

I'm not sure how H/T and "using all of the road" are related? I H/T my 911 as a habit on street or track. I was taught the mechanics of it in the paddock at a DE and told to practice it on the street safely (i.e. at legal speeds and don't go burying the brakes in traffic, etc). I tell my students the same thing. Make it a habit on the street before trying it on the track.

Also, several of the cars I've taught in (Dodges, Hondas) had poor pedal placement for H/T, but the students were able to learn it.

tkerrmd

Heel toe shifting is a necessary skill to drive a car at the track in a safe smooth and fast pace. You need to be able to drive at a safe smooth pace to advance to be a solo driver in our region (Suncoast) therefore reason follows that you must possess the skill of heel toe shifting to advance.

JackOlsen

I still don't understand why anyone would NOT want to do it. I personally wouldn't make instructors test for it, but I can't imagine anyone wanting to continue getting faster without doing what it takes to go faster. It's kind of like arbitrarily setting a speed limit on yourself.

It's not all that difficult a thing to do. The learning curve comes when you take an afternoon and go through some cloverleafs, empty roads, etc, practicing. Even then, it doesn't take very long to master.

As a side note: neither beginners nor intermediates should be taught to do anything after turn-in other than getting on the throttle as soon as they're able.

Gary R.

Can you H/T with the newer 996's and 997's? I thought once you put your foot on the brake it disabled the throttle input.

kurt M

Why would you not teach a valuable driving technique? There is nothing counter productive to learning H&T in all but a few unusual cases. Tailor the timing and method of instruction to the student. That’s why there are instructors in the car and we don't just play an instructional DVD at the beginning of the day.

Gator_86_951

There are some cars that need substantial adjustment. For example, our '03 cobra needed a substantial adjustment. I don't see how you can drive decently fast safely without h/t, but that is just me.

paradisenb

I have done 2 events with FCR and went through their school and several others last year. I think their's is one of the best around. Performing H/T is part of safe and smooth track driving. (no flames. Yes one can be both w/o it but...)
NASA requires this skill for advancement as well.

I use the technique in the first car I ever owned at VW Bug. The syncros were not so good and matching the revs was required not the grind the gears.

Practice a couple of weeks on the street and you will be good enough to meet the minimum requirements and be a better driver for it.

mglobe

I do it all the time with my 997. It is true that if you try to left foot brake with the clutch engaged, the egas shuts down. But I guess that if the clutch pedal is in, this doesn't happen, because I blip the throttle with every downshift. Works just fine, and contrary to some folks' comments about the pedal placement, I've never had an issue with being able to H/T in my car.

sechsgang

^^^Unless I read you wrong or you disabled the software, all 996s and 997s DO disconnect the gas when on the brake...there IS a program to write over this, but its annoying as hell on the turbo...


As for the subject, when one gets to going around a track at a certain speed, it is clear one MUST have the technique mastered...if you feel you are going fast and NOT using it, then you arent going nearly as fast as you thought.

FWIW, I havent changed anything on any car to heel-toe better...my after-market pedals are no wider than my stock ones and I have NO problems! (Grip tape can be a nice add on though...)

Paul 996

+1 this is an essential driving technique for a manual transmission car. The basic premise here is to allow driver to match the engine revs for the next lower gear while also slowing the car down for the upcoming corner. Period

I can't think of a manual car that I have driven in the last 25 years that couldn't easily accomodate H/T downshifts. I have a cable throttle 996 now for those wondering. (can't speak for the drive by wire versions).

Somebody said earlier....practice it everywhere on the street until it becomes 2nd nature, then take it to the track as a skill.

mglobe

No, I've not disabled or modified the software. If you have the clutch pedal down, the 997 does not disable the gas when you're foot is on the brake.