SundayDriver

Opinions vary. You will find top level (F1) drivers on both sides of that argument. I think it has to do with the individuals psychology. Some people do better if they exceed the limits and then back off. Some do better by approaching the limits from the other side. For me, I need to push beyond the limits in some places to find the limits. OTOH, there are corners where the penalty is too high to take that approach. And then some of us are not gods and simply run out of talent from time to time.

However, I personally don't think that everyone who holds and opinion that differs from mine is a "retard".

RedlineMan

Wow...

As Kimi would say, "Prilliant!"

38D

Total spins/offs is 12

1) Watkins Glen 2002...into T1, back end bouncing and turned in too hard...spun on track.

2) Watkins Glen 2003...broke a CV on 2ns laps between 1&2...tried to drive off so I was not sitting in the esses...slid down grass and brushed wall

3) Lime Rock..flying off the outside of the esses...hard impact to tire wall...flipped

4&5) Road Atlanta 2003. First one...warmup lap on new track...drove straight off. 2nd one...was convinced I could go flat out into T1 in a stock 914 on Hoosiers...in 35 degree weather

6) Road Atlanta 2005...missed the blip on the heal/toe.

7&8) Mosport race 2005...both between 5A/5B...both times missed the blips on the heal/toe...bought new pedals!

9) Road America 2006...P1 overall for qualifying...did one hot lap...next lap I stuffed it into the gravel trap in Canada corner...still got the overall pole with my one lap

10&11&12) 3 times at the Daytona race in 2006. First time was going into the chicane. Under braking the battery broke off and killed the power...rears locked up instantly...160mph sideways...scariest ride I've ever had. 2nd one went 4 off just past the kink...drove straight and didn't even lose any positions . Last one, I went flying into T1, got wide and spun gently into the tire wall...yes I got a 13...with the new pavement I would have been fine.


Btw, I didn't count going into the grass on purpose to make a pass

Veloce Raptor

I think that every instructor who tells students this IS a retard.....and many do (I have heard them).

In addition, people who regularly practice this philosophy on track where there are other drivers are dangerous fools who regularly spin, go off, delay events for others while they get towed out of the mud, and potentially put others at risk.

FYI, in F1/CART/IndyCar/etc., they do private testing, so they often have the track to themselves for days at a time.

rickdm

Dave, given your speed, your record of so few off's is pretty impressive.

Let me ask this, is there a difference between between spinning off track and driving off in a controlled manner? On a track such as MSR Cresson, where you have a lot grassy runoff areas and few walls I have driven the car off when I felt that I might have carried too much speed into the corner and did not want to risk sliding off sideways across a series of ruts. I know this is not an option on many tracks, but it has allowed me to avoid car damage at the tracks I typically run. So I have one sideways off at my first DE in the rain, and another ten or so times when I drove it off track.

Veloce Raptor

Mike, you made simple mistakes, as every single one of us does every single lap. IMO, that is very different from having a philosophy that "If I don't spin/go off, I need to go faster", which you most definitely DON'T have. Please give yourself credit where credit is due here...

Rick, IMO, this is very smart, and it is what we teach our students, too. Again, very different from a philosophy of "Gotta go faster if I ain't spinning"...

RedlineMan

Hey;

17 years (1990-2007), 3 offs, 1 "spin". Asterisk!

* 1st off, 1998- Left Hander at LRP. Let a car pass late into Big Bend, then tailed him closely. Distracted by "his pace" and missed my brake point. L/F tire hit the seam (actually a crack, probably a pothole now) in the center of the track right when I braked. Reasoned that I had too much speed and not enough track left to make the turn. Straightened, braked, and CHOSE to go off in the grass. 15' out and back on. Damage: Ego, and some grass in the screen. Lesson: Don't get distracted. Pay attention 100%!

* 1st Spin, 2003 - Turn 1 at VIR. Jump out of students car, rush to get out late. ANCIENT Yoko 008s, stone cold. Cruise into turn 1 at what I thought was a moderate pace. Wooops... steer, steer more, full lock... nope. Long, lazy 180, still on track. Thanks to Marlys Thompson (pit chief) for being a friend and not razzing me too badly. Damage: none. Lesson: What's the rush?

* 2nd off, 2004 - South Bend at VIR. Flat from Snake all the way up the hill. Probably 100mph. Lax concentration and lazy turn in. I probably could have made the turn, maybe with a little dust cloud, but... Just didn't like my position/angle/speed. CHOSE to drive off at I'd guess about 90mph. Just a nice rumble through the grass, West of Lake Arlene and back on track. Damage: none. Lesson: If you're going to up the ante 10% you better up your concentration 20%. At that speed, it's a real turn... SO TURN!

* 3rd Off, 2006- Turn 1 at VIR. Cold day, half dry track. Passed by a 993TT on bridge straight. Passed my buddy Tim (83 944 beater) out of Oak Tree, then a GT3 (?) a third of the way down the straight. Motoring along, being somewhat cautious with the wet areas and puddles. Rounding the kink on the front straight, I see the silver TT going though Turn 1, and a cloud of mist behind it. Realized it was oil when I hit the brakes. Nothing. Managed to stay straight until the edge and then started spinning through the soggy grass. 1, 2, 3, starts to slow on 4 and I steer into the spin (yeh really) to keep it spinning and scrubbing speed. On one rotation I see the Yellow GT3 spinning by in a similar fashion, but fortunately on a different vector. Stopped about 25' from the wall. He stopped about 10! Damage: Shorts. Lesson: Don't follow TTs when they blow an oil line. If you see fluid/mist/smoke of ANY kind, go off line and slow down early.

Obviously, I am a "limit creeper", not a "back tracker." Actually, I'm a chicken ****, but... I wouldn't have it any other way, and I don't think it should be at a DE. I know where I stand. I'm not a racer, nor a pylon. I'm a good DE driver.

I offer this - perhaps immodestly - as one model of how it can be done.

RedlineMan

Very well clarified.

RedlineMan

Well now...

There's a fine line somehwere there. eh? How indeed do you know where the limit is if you do not cross it, whether or not that is appropriate for the event notwithstanding? Conversely, and perhaps more to the point, how many times crossing it should it take for you to get the idea? Different cars and different people liven up the equation quite nicely. Then there are distinctions to be drawn between harmless little pirhouettes and huge gravity defying adventures.

Those who do not learn from their mistakes are the ones to watch out for. Those are the ones defying The Fates, and endangering more than themselves in many cases.

SundayDriver

Well, the original post did not really say that was a DE environment. I would agree that is a stupid approach in a DE where you should be leaving something on the table. If that was the environment you were referring to, then I understand.

Willard Bridgham 3

Most memorable off was going into turn 13, after the carousel and entering the boot at Watkins Glen.

I admit I was in the grip of the "red mist" and had too much speed. Came down the hill high on the track preparing to pass a rear-engined car and began to brake and nothing much happened when I pushed the pedal. I realized that, if I tried to recover and then spun, I would take out a bunch of cars in the corner, so I turned up into the armcos and grass to get rid of some speed. Worked fine and all that happened was a bent driver's side quarter and my car stayed off the track. I could have made it if the pavement were dry: it wasn't.

Ah, if I had only listened to Uncle Bill at the driver's meeting when he said: "watch out there, there's a small spring on the side hill on the inside of the track and it can be wet." He reminded me of this as I came back to the garage.

Veloce Raptor

Mark, to me, it doesn't matter whether it is a DE or a race: unless you have the track to yourself, it is foolish at best to think that, if you don't spin/go off, you just need to go faster. And it is retarded to advocate that others follow this behavior. Would you not agree?

Larry Herman

There is a 600 Gorilla sitting in the room here and no one is talking about him. That Gorilla is talent. The really good drivers are constantly challenging and testing the limits of their cars in various turns. It's just that for them, stepping over the limit does not result in a loss of control, and a spin or off. It is merely a bobble, a missed apex or a delay in being able to get back on the power.

It is the lesser drivers, and the developing ones that risk a spin or an off every time they test the limits. I see it all the time in the videos. The driver gets into a position where a spin is developing, and I wait for corrective action that does not come until it is way too late. If they had the ability to feel it coming, it would have been nothing more than a bobble.

I think that it is a product of the current DE environment. There is little emphasis on cutting your teeth in a car control environment like karting or autocrossing before one ever gets to the track. There also is a big emphasis on driving fast cars, many with traction and stability control. So you wind up with a lot of drivers in fast cars who learn where the line is, and where to put the power down, but with little feel for what is going on. Developing that feel either takes tremendous talent or years of experience, sometimes both.

One last thought about what constitutes a high HP car for DEs. For those of you who say "well I don't have a high HP car, I drive a lowly Carrera or a C2", remember that when I started DEs in 1983, a Carrera was the 2nd fastest stock Porsche that you could buy (short of a 930). If C2s were out then, they would have been the fastest cars, hands down. Just offering food for thought on this Sunday Morning.

slivel

Very well stated. Learning car control is fundamental and should be done early in any performance driving career. One should be able to react successfully to the front , rear or both ends losing grip. At the Club Racing or DE level getting loose or having any other such bobble should not result in an off. However, the racing surface is dynamic and debris on the track that wasn't there the lap before or oil or coolant put down just ahead of you can easily result in an off and is probably not avoidable by even the most experienced among us. So... those who claim to have seldom or never been off either are extremely lucky or are having selective memory if their driving experience spans several years.

Bull

Well said Larry. We learn to catch things and drive on, where in earlier days we might have had a big "off"....and at much higher speeds. As RLM said, it is the ones who don't learn that we need to watch out for.

I also believe that in some cases new drivers hear the "two feet in" talk and then apply the concept way too soon in a developing situation, ending up off track when they could have saved the situation.