Veloce Raptor

Huh?

mglobe

werd!

wanna911

I havent seen an F1 driver yet that hasnt been off on their own without fault of the car, and they are the "best".

Of course, they are going much faster than most of us, but also have higher skill sets and training levels.

Simply missing an apex, or braking too late is enough to send you off at many tracks. If you have never been off you are very lucky for sure, but the slower you go, the less likely you are to spin due to pushing the limits, I think that is a better way to put it.

The faster you go, the easier and more likely you are to go off.

Brian P

Hmm.... Let's see if I can remember them all

Lime Rock in West Bend : Stupid Tiptronic downshifted extremely late on me. However, it was my fault because I was slowing down so much that I tried to downshift anyhow. Got lucky and kept the car on the pavement.

Mid-Ohio in Turn 1 : Spent the whole event doing a light brush of the brakes into that turn and then did a lap chasing somebody and when we got to turn 1, my plan was to brush the brakes when he did and punch it so that I could get a good jump. He didn't touch the brakes, and I realized a bit after turn in that I didn't hit the brakes either. I panicked and ended up going straight off into the grassy area to the right of turn 1.

Watkins Glen in the left going into the laces : I reverse mounted old MPSC's on the rear of the car to get more life out of them and put new MPSC's on the front. Let's just say that the rear of the car had significantly less grip than the front. I don't think it's possible to get closer to the wall without actually hitting it.

Lime Rock in the left hander : Followed someone too closely who ended up braking harder than I expected. I went into the grass as an avoidance measure.

Mid-Ohio at the end of the back straight into the right hander : My 3-piece wheel sheared about 21 bolts (of 30 total) and I spun. Fortunately stayed on the track.

Pocono in the north course : Tire had a blowout in the infield. Spun, stayed on track.

Mid Ohio in the jump turn : Total mental error. During the whole time of the three day event, I'm jamming through the turn with the car getting loose and I'm always catching it. On the last run for me, something felt a bit off with the car, so I decide that I'm going to end the run early and bring the car in. Unfortunately, I mentally shut down and treated it like a cool down lap. However, my datalogging software showed that I was going just as fast as I went throughout the entire event. I got into the jump turn, got loose, and didn't catch it since I mentally tuned out. Then... when I started to spin, I hit a small bump which knocked my foot off the brake pedal. Ended up tagging a tire wall at about 20 MPH.

Lime Rock in the uphill : I left the rear sway bar too stiff, car got loose coming through the uphill. Ended up in the chicane area and drove back on track.

Road America in the kink : Going through the turn comfortably at approximately 100 MPH and tried going through at 110. While that's still a safe speed, the line I took and the jump in G-force from 100 to 110 was a bit too much. Lost control to the inside of the track and brushed the concrete wall at about 80 MPH.

I totally agree with the sentiment that it's moronic to think you need to spin to figure out where the limits are on the car. Also, those who think they are good drivers because they have spun but not hit anything are simply lucky (and delusional). Dr. Jupeman has mentioned, and I'm a firm believer in this, is that the difference between a spin and a crash is luck.

Veloce Raptor

Yup, agree completely.

Opps, I forgot one off: first time at the Glen, first session, 2nd lap, got tapped by Charles Espenlaub accidentally just exiting the Esses (I was probably 5-10 MPH slower than he was at that spot on that lap), spun clockwise, caught it after doing 180 degrees into the thin grass area betweeh track right & the Armco, brought it to a stop rolling backwards in the grass. When stopped (engine still running), I could stick my glove thru my window net & touch the Armco. No impact, but it was THAT close. Espenlaub--a 100% class act (nlike Nasty Nastasi)--came over to find me & profusely apologize imediately afterwarss, even though it was (a) a true accident, and (b) because I was sofa king slow on my 2nd-ever lap of the Glen.

Definite code brown moment...

Flying Finn

I've never had on "off", I promise!

Seriously, some times it's better to not "fight" and them most likely, spin. Just drive it off if it absolutely wants to go there, slow it down a little and come back to the black surface.

I think I've only been 4 wheels of couple of times but dropped two wheels few more. Never hit anything, nor spun out, always went "off" by choice and the re-grouped and came back.

I'm probably not trying hard enough.

I disagree.

You can spin and control your spin so that when it's time to let go off the brakes, stop spinning and re-gain control. I've actually practiced that (on ice).

And while I don't agree that "you need to spin to fiqure out where the limits are", you do need to get little loose (sliding, pushing etc.) in order to fiqure the limits out. If you never go past the limits, you most likely don't know where they are.

+1

M758

Too many to keep track of.... I would guess over 100 in 100 track days. So just about 1 a day seems about right. Of those offs only 3-4 have been any way spooky and only 3 caused any damage (two minor I and kept driving later that day) Interestingly my most damaging off was in an autocross.

As for needing to go off to learn... Well it all depends on what is around you. Nearly all of these "offs" have been either quite controlled and with little around me other than dirt/grass etc.

At PIR I have 3 "situations" around the high speed oval banking and none of them were skill issues. First was doing a 1/4 spin at 85 MPH on my own oil following a motor blow up. Next two involved oil on track. First time I was ready and the car just understeer out a bit. No real big deal. Second was oil again and the back end steped out and it scared me. I did not lose control as quickly caught it.

My point is alot of my off tracks have been part of a calcuated risk of driving hard. I know where I can push the limits on most of my tracks with minimal risk. So I push hard there and sometimes exceed the limits and go off straight or back wards although straight is perferred. The times I have been off and been concerned about hitting somethings have been very rare. In fact my scariest moments both occured at PIR and in all I never left the racing surface. Two of those I never got more that 45 deg to the track.

John H

I will try a new line or to carry more speed or to brake later only when I am by myself at a DE or in race warm ups. I have gone off once from carrying too much speed into turn one at Mid-Ohio and I paid for it. It is easy to run the same laptimes with the same braking points over and over. Where it gets more difficult is trying to get those last few tenths out of the car and the driver. I doubt many of us here are running an entire lap, let alone lap after lap, on the edge. Unless you push, you'll continue to run "comfortable" laps. It all depends on your goal, I guess.
Believe me, I am not advocating running ***** out until you have an off. I am indicating, for me anyway, that when I can run the same lap time, lap after lap, I think very small, incremental changes until I am closer to the edge is in order. That may be braking two feet later in one place or trying to carry just a tad more speed through a corner. It may mean trying a different line. Any of these things, if you are at or near the edge could be just enough.

DrJupeman

At some tracks, or some tracks in certain turns, absolutely (that's not to say you can't control a spin and avoid stuff, I've done it, but people should take spins VERY seriously - most are just lucky that they missed hitting something). As such, in my "off" count, I'm including all my spins, even the ones that were harmless.

Spins/off driver induced: 9
Spins/off mechanical induced: 2
Spins/off "crash avoidance": 1

Total: 12
Track days: 237
Spins/Offs per track day: .05

Spins/Offs resulting in bent sheet metal, driver induced: 1
Spins/Offs resulting in bent sheet metal, mechanical induced: 2
Spins/Offs per track day where metal was bent: .01

Bridgehampton wins for the track where I have the most "driver induced" spins/offs with 3. Not coincidentally, I drove there when I was least experienced.

Now for the fun one: spins/off while instructing (as passenger): 3 (no metal bent)

Here's my most dramatic "mechanical induced" off (I'm in the GT3 Cup up ahead in the video, watch the tire delaminate): Bad Tire! Bad!

M758

I don't believe that to be the case. Alot depends on where you drive. An off at the Glen may require luck to not end up in damage, but not every corner on every track is like the Glen. Even in F1 you will see drivers going "off" with little risk of hitting things depending on where you do it. In watching F1 at Indy the turn 1-2 complex has seen many many cars go off both F1 and supercup. I have only see 1 car get damaged from a wall or other object in that spot. That was when Alonso's tire blew and he contacted in the outside wall. Not his fault in any way. Even so I would figure that I would see 20-30 straight line offs in that corner over the coruse of a weekend in supercup, F1 and other other support races. To hit a wall there takes BAD Luck. Now clearly you can get car to car contact, but that is different issue entirely as car to car stuff really brings in an entirely new dynamic. BTW... spining in the oval at that track or at place like Monaco and not seeing damage IS all about Luck.

late apex

The last time I went off was Nov. 07 at 170mph past turn 1's 3 marker at Roebling Road.
I had a massive left rear blowout and pretty much became a passenger. Luckily, no real damage to the car except the left rear bodywork got shredded.
I spin occasionally. Sometimes it is the first day at a new track, or the first day with a new car.
Nothing much to be done about the above types of spins, except to know what to do when it happens.
I push in the clutch, like I do for almost all on track emergencies, like stuck throttle etc...
There is a threshold that needs to be crossed in order to make it as a race driver and that is the ability to slide or drift the car. Trying to get familiar with a new car can be tough. A testing day is required at a minimum. This is not what a DE is for, nor a race.
My brother was in a car accident as a child (drunk driver in wrong lane) and is now what Dave is calling retarded. I do not think he would tell someone to spin their car so I do not see the connection.
I do think that a racer has to be able to slide the car and that takes practice, and there will be spins. Lack of spins and the ability to slide the car makes a racer. Lack of spins and not sliding the car makes a "precision driver" or a driver that considers the limits of the car to be at the 95% traction level of the tires (and probably enjoys watching figure skating vs. hockey) not that there is anything wrong with that....

FredC

Your record keeping skills, like your driving skills, are impressive.

mglobe

As this has turned from a discussion of number of offs & spins to philosophy on pushing the limits & how to handle the limits, I'll offer up a video of my first ever off at turn 1 @ TWS.

http://www.vimeo.com/613813

I realized that I didn't have the ability to complete the turn without a possible catastrophic spin, & so gave up & drove off. Is this evidence of:

Being reckless and pushing too hard in cold track conditions
Pushing too hard in cold conditions & managing the outcome well
Testing the limits in a valid fashion
Globe, you suck as a driver -- (deep_uv & TR6 may not choose this one)
All of the above
Other -- none of the above

Feel free to cuss, discuss or ignore. I'm finding this conversation interesting & useful, & I've got my digital nomex on.

M758

My vote is for...
I can't tell which one without looking at the video (darn firewall)... I do surmize that Turn 1 at TWS involves getting off the oval and down to the infield with loads of run off. For that reason I would not consider it be reckless.

DrJupeman

I track my track/race days. I do NOT track spins/off, that was all off-the-top-of-my-head. I'm sure 38D or Brian P. will remind me of an "event" I'm forgetting...