Robert Henriksen

Yes.

That's a much lower line & earlier entry than I'm used to seeing at PCA DE days. Easier on the car (less violent transition onto the flat infield section), but requires more steering input to rotate the car. As compared to staying higher on the banking & turning in later.

When racing, you've got to protect the low line, but for DEs? Never understood using that line (other than keeping all your tub spot welds intact).

Mike in Chi

Is the reason Colin can remember them all, because he is usually following you?????

weneversleep

I'm not a racer, nor do I pretend to be one, but I have done my fair share of DEs.

I had a few offs (and even spins) when I first started out, simply because I was learning car control and being too aggressive. I didn't understand how to correct an upcoming loss of control, because I didn't understand what the car was doing and what it "wanted" to do.

Since then, I haven't had a spin in the last 2-3 years (hard to remember), and I have had one little "off"--two wheels off of the outside of trackout of turn 6 going CW at TWS, with an instructor in my car for my checkout ride for Yellow. I kept the car straight and got back on the track when it was safe. Never really lost control, just ran out of track/talent at trackout. When asked why I went off, I explained I early apexed, and my instructor said "you're ready to move up", simply because I handled the situation correctly.

Now, of course, I've made lots of mistakes on track, pretty much every lap as VR states above. (and he's seen me make them too!) But, once I learned better car control skills, and how the car feels at the limit, I haven't had those mistakes result in going off track or losing control. Obviously, I've got a _long_ way to go, and I'm sure I'll screw up badly enough one of these days to have something happen again, especially as my limits increase as I get more experience.

But, I agree that continual offs, especially at a DE, is a sign that the driver has poor car control skills and/or is being too aggressive, and this kind of behavior holds up events and frustrates everyone. Racing is a different story...

deep_uv

Dang, I guess I don't get a vote, then.

I would go with Other -- None of the above. -- Line choice

Disclaimer - I'm no expert, in fact not even close as I'm a total rookie.
That said, IMHO, I would call your line the middle line, not the low line. I like the middle line the least of all as it seems to have you pointed off track at turn in, which is what happened. I prefer the low line because you can get the car rotated earlier, makes a smaller arc and you can be back on the gas earlier. The high line gives you more straight line braking but takes a huge arc through the turn in doing so.

I put together a video of some of my expermimenting with the some of the different options. I like the lower lines better, seems faster and shorter, to me. Again, I'm a rookie, so anyone should feel free to disagree and put me in my place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45DL9O_W4PU

Robert Henriksen

Nothing like having some data. The best metric for lines through T1 is which one puts you at the track-out of T2 the fastest.

Did you try sector timing from some spot on the front straight to T2 trackout for those different clips?

deep_uv

I thought about that, but I'm not sure of my speed at the end of the straight in each clip. The high and middle lines came from earlier in my development, the low line clips being later. I didn't think it would be a valid comparison. Unless, of course the low line clips are much slower, I guess.

BTW, I forgot to add that I went off in the same exact spot as Mike once, but before I started shooting video. My line was high or middle as I was still in blue instructed at that time.

mglobe

We're way off topic, but what the hell. I like the lower line (what steve calls middle), because I feel less rushed to get on and off the brakes. The high line leaves my car unsettled, & I have to wait longer than I want to to get on the brakes, make my downshift, and get back on the gas. It just feels too rushed, and as a consequence, I tend to carry less speed into one to allow myself more comfort in going through that sequence. I don't think the line alone was the cause for the off, as I carried that line 10+ mph faster later in the day when the track was cleaner and warmer.

Robert Henriksen

Which takes one back to the inevitable, unfortunate bitter reality that you can't really get valid results from such experimentation unless the nut behind the wheel can click off consistent lap times. Or at least sector times.

It's really educational to look at the timesheets from a good racing series. Look at how close the laptimes of the front runners are, and their individual laptimes within a qualifying session. You have to account for their running into traffic & such, of course. And you can park yourself in the stands, watch their lines in T1 during qualifying & then see how the line changes when they have to defend during a race. Those lines can look very different, because the objectives change.

TR6

I've been doing the highline there in T1 @ TWS in my all of two DE's I've run there. What I liked about the highline was that it required less rotation to turn-in to T2 and as a result, it seemed like I was able to carry more speed into T2 and, therefore, out of T2. Think about it. If you come in from the high line and brake more or less parallel to the outside edge of the track just before turn-in to 2, you aren't having to rotate the car through as sharp of an angle to make the turn in for 2. And I've heard several people talk about the transition from the banking unsettling the car, but I haven't (so far) had a problem with that. But I am not terribly experienced at TWS and don't have nearly the number of laps there that you guys have, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt. And I'll give the low line another try next time we're running CCW there to compare now that I've got a lot more seat time in general at other tracks.

smlporsche

What the heck were you driving?? That's not a particularly long straight.

...and you didn't hit anything

mglobe

I think if you ask three instructors, you'll get four answers on what line to take in that corner. I was driving the high line until an instructor showed me the "low" one I drive now. Without question, my speeds have increased since I changed. Others swear by the high line. I don't doubt that I'll change my opinion on it again, and probably again....

boze_man

1 off at turn 1 MSR houston

todinlaw

Ok I will add mine, last year first year doing DE's , first time out, two spins, none off track. Mid Ohio at the end of the back stretch ( turn 7) in to hot, lifted, spun. Next day turn 12 (carousel) late pass down thunder valley bad line in to the corner hot, lifted. spun on the track.
I have no skill yet, I did learn the "do not lift rule" the hard way. I need seat time, no skill just luck. I did learn by my mistakes however. two weeks later, i learned a better line. Slow in fast out. no spins, faster track time. What can I say its a learning process.

johnclay

At the risk of guaranteeing that I'll wad up my car at my next event, I'll admit that I have never spun or been off track. (Autox spins don't count).

The closest I've ever come was turn 1 at VIR, a little to hot, or perhaps a little too slow to pick up the throttle and the car rotated a lot. Had the wheel cranked and was just about to go both feet in when the back end finally decided to stop rotating. I've had a couple of times in turn 1 at Summit Point where I thought I was going to run out of room at exit, but allways managed to stay out of the dirt.

At the beginning of this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT-qxZanO7Q I had bit of a bobble that really took me by surprise. It was a bit scarry because I didn't expect it at all and there were cars right behind me. Much like others have said in a lot of there offs, I was taking it easy. I trailed on the brakes getting into hogpen thinking I was being safer and the back end tried to step out.

Keep watching the video until after oak tree and you'll get a good look at the 944 vs. the field on the back straight.

late apex

luckily, I did not hit anything, but the real problem at Roebling is if you get sideways in the sand . I did not do that either ! Whew ! Roebling has a long straight..