Different seat for passenger in DE
#16
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"...substantially the same..." is from the 2004 version found on the PCA Admin Member Library section.
"...same..." is from the PCA DE Minimum Standards section.
The Minimum Standards section has been updated with the new 1/1/08 standards regarding seat slot requirements and harness expiration dates. Admin Member Library section has not been updated with the 1/1/08 standards. Probably just an oversight that needs to be reviewed and updated.
Just to add a comment: No one is making an instructor get into a car as a passenger. If the instructor doesn't like what he sees, he can opt out of the situation. No?
"...same..." is from the PCA DE Minimum Standards section.
The Minimum Standards section has been updated with the new 1/1/08 standards regarding seat slot requirements and harness expiration dates. Admin Member Library section has not been updated with the 1/1/08 standards. Probably just an oversight that needs to be reviewed and updated.
Just to add a comment: No one is making an instructor get into a car as a passenger. If the instructor doesn't like what he sees, he can opt out of the situation. No?
#17
Nordschleife Master
#18
Race Director
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Joe, I think you touched on exactly why this discussion is so difficult and why I didn't want to express an opinion. Can you have an FIA cert harness set on the driver's side and an SFI cert harness on the passenger side assuming they are current with thier cert? Can you have a Schroth 2/3 Hans on the driver's side and a standard Schroth 3" on the passenger's sdie? Can you have a sparco seat on the driver's side and a recaro on the passenger side? Can you have a 5pt on the driver's side and a 6pt on the passenger's side?
My feeling is that the "equal restraints" goes like this.
Seats = Race shell in one side means race shell in the other. Both shells need not be identical, but both should be "race shells".
Harnesses = multi point on one side and multipoint on the other. How many points is irrelevant assuming they conform to DE harness regs. The other points is they conform to DE harness regs Not race regs. Just because the driver racers and is race conforming on the driver's side does not mean it need to race conform on the pass side. DE rules are what is required to pass. Therefore I even fell using a 2+ year old SFI harness is fine for DE as long as it conforms to the harness rules in DE.
In any case both seats and harness should be mounted scurely meeting at a least the DE seat/harness mount requirements.
#19
Nordschleife Master
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Yes, that was from the admin section of the PCA website under the DE section. I see now that there is a different document under the DE section of the website. Interesting.
Also, the wording is "...the same system..." which the way I interpret it does not mean THE SAME COMPONENTS. IE, you can have a recaro driver's seat and a sparco passenger's seat. It does mean to me that if you have a 6pt driver's harness, then you need a 6pt passenger harness, not a 5pt harness.
Also, the wording is "...the same system..." which the way I interpret it does not mean THE SAME COMPONENTS. IE, you can have a recaro driver's seat and a sparco passenger's seat. It does mean to me that if you have a 6pt driver's harness, then you need a 6pt passenger harness, not a 5pt harness.
#20
Race Director
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It's approaches to safety like Joe P (right before your post) that I was referring to. What is "crazy" is thinking an instructor is worth less than you and is worthy of nothing more than expired belts that appear "still good" and a $50 aluminum seat. Joe, I seriously hope you were being comical and not serious.
DE has no rules like SFI belts expiring after 2 years. My pass harness meets DE safety rules.
As for my $50 seat. It is a full race legal seat well mounted. I got it used for $50 and since it is aluminum I don't need to concern myself with age. I could run this on the drivers side if choose to, but I find my sparco more comfortable. As for passenger's comfort... well people will aways complain about comfort anyway. I can't please everyone so I will not try. I do feel both set-ups are safe and meet the equal restraint rule as both sides have race shells and multipoint racing harnesses.
#21
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Dell, I don't know if Joe's passenger seat setup is less safe than his drivers seat. It may be less comfortable and possibly provide less lateral support, but would it really be less safe? I do not know how one could determine that.
My car has a Recaro Pro-Racer drivers seat (full containment), and an SPG passenger seat. My harnesses are the Team Tech jet pilot 7 point (with 5 points of attachment) and the passenger is the standard Team Tech 5 point setup (same age). I think that what I have satisfies both the letter and the spirit of the ruling. I feel that I have provided the passenger with a safety system of the same substantial quality as I have with respect to their safety in my car at a DE. In a race however, I feel that I need whatever additional that my drivers system affords, due to the higher risk.
My car has a Recaro Pro-Racer drivers seat (full containment), and an SPG passenger seat. My harnesses are the Team Tech jet pilot 7 point (with 5 points of attachment) and the passenger is the standard Team Tech 5 point setup (same age). I think that what I have satisfies both the letter and the spirit of the ruling. I feel that I have provided the passenger with a safety system of the same substantial quality as I have with respect to their safety in my car at a DE. In a race however, I feel that I need whatever additional that my drivers system affords, due to the higher risk.
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
#22
Nordschleife Master
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Dell, I don't know if Joe's passenger seat setup is less safe than his drivers seat. It may be less comfortable and possibly provide less lateral support, but would it really be less safe? I do not know how one could determine that.
My car has a Recaro Pro-Racer drivers seat (full containment), and an SPG passenger seat. My harnesses are the Team Tech jet pilot 7 point (with 5 points of attachment) and the passenger is the standard Team Tech 5 point setup (same age). I think that what I have satisfies both the letter and the spirit of the ruling. I feel that I have provided the passenger with a safety system of the same substantial quality as I have with respect to their safety in my car at a DE. In a race however, I feel that I need whatever additional that my drivers system affords, due to the higher risk.
My car has a Recaro Pro-Racer drivers seat (full containment), and an SPG passenger seat. My harnesses are the Team Tech jet pilot 7 point (with 5 points of attachment) and the passenger is the standard Team Tech 5 point setup (same age). I think that what I have satisfies both the letter and the spirit of the ruling. I feel that I have provided the passenger with a safety system of the same substantial quality as I have with respect to their safety in my car at a DE. In a race however, I feel that I need whatever additional that my drivers system affords, due to the higher risk.
#23
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Do we then require that the driver and instructor utilize the identical:
Helmet?
H&N restraint?
Clothing (nomex)?
Eye protection?
At what point do we eliminate the use of common sense and reason in favor of following rules to the letter of the law?
Helmet?
H&N restraint?
Clothing (nomex)?
Eye protection?
At what point do we eliminate the use of common sense and reason in favor of following rules to the letter of the law?
#24
Race Director
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Why do we care about one side being "safer" than the other? Seriously.
If both sides are considered "Safe" for DE is that not enough? Both sides have race shells are harnesses right? Realisticly a well installed system will ALWAYS be safer for the driver because the driver's size is known and the position of the restraints can be optimized for his/her size. Any good race shop will want to make the driver side as good as possible that means placing the harness bar in cage at the optimal height for the driver given their overall size. Plus with advent of HANS it becomes even more crutial to optimize all the harness and seat installations for the driver's stature.
You cannot optimize for the passenger! There are guys here talkign about sparco XL3 seats for "big boy" drivers. Well guess what. They may have that same seat mounted on the pass side for a "big boy" instructor. I come along with my 155lbs 5' 7" frame and flop around the seat after speeding 10 minutes trying to tighten all the belts. Am I as safe as the driver? No! If the **** hits the fan he strapped in tight as drum with all the angles just right. I simply have to make do with a set-up for a 6'2" 250lbs instructor.
#25
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There's no way tech inspectors would enforce a requirement of IDENTICAL products for driver and passenger. That's just silly. If the driver has race shell and 6-pts, then so does the passenger. Let's be realistic here.
#26
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I'm thinking the intent is for harnesses only as seats are not typically considered part of the restraint vernacular. Perhaps "substantally equivalent safety equipment", or something similar, would better serve the purpose.
#27
Nordschleife Master
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You cannot optimize for the passenger! There are guys here talkign about sparco XL3 seats for "big boy" drivers. Well guess what. They may have that same seat mounted on the pass side for a "big boy" instructor. I come along with my 155lbs 5' 7" frame and flop around the seat after speeding 10 minutes trying to tighten all the belts. Am I as safe as the driver? No! If the **** hits the fan he strapped in tight as drum with all the angles just right. I simply have to make do with a set-up for a 6'2" 250lbs instructor.
by the way, silly and safety don't belong in the same conversation
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Seats are actually PART of the restraint system. It even states so in the rules and with the harness manufacturers.
#28
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#30
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I have a Recaro SPG as a driver's seat, but if I used that as a passenger seat, about 1/2 of my students would not be able to fit in the car, so I have a Recaro SRD on the passenger side. Also, the harnesses are not the same brand, but both are 6 pt.
It's a common sense rule. If I get into a car where the driver is in a shell, and I'm on a stock seat, then I'm going to be less than pleased, but if the driver has a Recaro shell, and I'm in a Sparco shell, then that's fine. If the driver has harnesses, then harnesses should be available for me me. If not, we both wear 3pts.
Also, just because both sides use the same equipment, that doesn't make it safe. I've seen more than one car with both side had the exact same poorly installed setup.
It's a common sense rule. If I get into a car where the driver is in a shell, and I'm on a stock seat, then I'm going to be less than pleased, but if the driver has a Recaro shell, and I'm in a Sparco shell, then that's fine. If the driver has harnesses, then harnesses should be available for me me. If not, we both wear 3pts.
Also, just because both sides use the same equipment, that doesn't make it safe. I've seen more than one car with both side had the exact same poorly installed setup.