shiners780

"...substantially the same..." is from the 2004 version found on the PCA Admin Member Library section.

"...same..." is from the PCA DE Minimum Standards section.

The Minimum Standards section has been updated with the new 1/1/08 standards regarding seat slot requirements and harness expiration dates. Admin Member Library section has not been updated with the 1/1/08 standards. Probably just an oversight that needs to be reviewed and updated.

Just to add a comment: No one is making an instructor get into a car as a passenger. If the instructor doesn't like what he sees, he can opt out of the situation. No?

LVDell

Absolutely.

M758

I would argue yes for all. For example. I am a smaller driver at 155 lbs. So me driver's seat needs to work best to keep ME in the seat. I need one I find comfortable. My passenger's seat may need to be larger to accomodate a larger instructor. Not every instructor is 155lbs so I may want to use a more adaptable seat or one that is easier to get into out of. Using a 2/3 HANS hareness on the drivers side may work for a HANS wearing driver. However and instrucotr may or may not use A HANS. So I would never use a 2/3 harness on that side since they don't want you use a 2/3 harness without HANS.

My feeling is that the "equal restraints" goes like this.

Seats = Race shell in one side means race shell in the other. Both shells need not be identical, but both should be "race shells".

Harnesses = multi point on one side and multipoint on the other. How many points is irrelevant assuming they conform to DE harness regs. The other points is they conform to DE harness regs Not race regs. Just because the driver racers and is race conforming on the driver's side does not mean it need to race conform on the pass side. DE rules are what is required to pass. Therefore I even fell using a 2+ year old SFI harness is fine for DE as long as it conforms to the harness rules in DE.

In any case both seats and harness should be mounted scurely meeting at a least the DE seat/harness mount requirements.

Geoffrey

Yes, that was from the admin section of the PCA website under the DE section. I see now that there is a different document under the DE section of the website. Interesting.

Also, the wording is "...the same system..." which the way I interpret it does not mean THE SAME COMPONENTS. IE, you can have a recaro driver's seat and a sparco passenger's seat. It does mean to me that if you have a 6pt driver's harness, then you need a 6pt passenger harness, not a 5pt harness.

M758

DE has no rules like SFI belts expiring after 2 years. My pass harness meets DE safety rules.

As for my $50 seat. It is a full race legal seat well mounted. I got it used for $50 and since it is aluminum I don't need to concern myself with age. I could run this on the drivers side if choose to, but I find my sparco more comfortable. As for passenger's comfort... well people will aways complain about comfort anyway. I can't please everyone so I will not try. I do feel both set-ups are safe and meet the equal restraint rule as both sides have race shells and multipoint racing harnesses.

Larry Herman

Dell, I don't know if Joe's passenger seat setup is less safe than his drivers seat. It may be less comfortable and possibly provide less lateral support, but would it really be less safe? I do not know how one could determine that.

My car has a Recaro Pro-Racer drivers seat (full containment), and an SPG passenger seat. My harnesses are the Team Tech jet pilot 7 point (with 5 points of attachment) and the passenger is the standard Team Tech 5 point setup (same age). I think that what I have satisfies both the letter and the spirit of the ruling. I feel that I have provided the passenger with a safety system of the same substantial quality as I have with respect to their safety in my car at a DE. In a race however, I feel that I need whatever additional that my drivers system affords, due to the higher risk.

LVDell

You hit the nail right on the head Larry. How do we determine if one setup is more/less safe than the other one? The only way is if they are IDENTICAL. Now we see why there is lack of comprehension when interpreting the new rules. See why there is problems with the new rule? Sounds to me like this becomes a Bill Belichek response until PCA gets more specific......"that's how I interpreted the rule". Individual interpretation is subjective and then you ask where you draw the line where identical/similar/different is.

shiners780

Do we then require that the driver and instructor utilize the identical:

Helmet?

H&N restraint?

Clothing (nomex)?

Eye protection?

At what point do we eliminate the use of common sense and reason in favor of following rules to the letter of the law?

M758

Well how are you sure the either side is installed properly?

Why do we care about one side being "safer" than the other? Seriously.

If both sides are considered "Safe" for DE is that not enough? Both sides have race shells are harnesses right? Realisticly a well installed system will ALWAYS be safer for the driver because the driver's size is known and the position of the restraints can be optimized for his/her size. Any good race shop will want to make the driver side as good as possible that means placing the harness bar in cage at the optimal height for the driver given their overall size. Plus with advent of HANS it becomes even more crutial to optimize all the harness and seat installations for the driver's stature.

You cannot optimize for the passenger! There are guys here talkign about sparco XL3 seats for "big boy" drivers. Well guess what. They may have that same seat mounted on the pass side for a "big boy" instructor. I come along with my 155lbs 5' 7" frame and flop around the seat after speeding 10 minutes trying to tighten all the belts. Am I as safe as the driver? No! If the **** hits the fan he strapped in tight as drum with all the angles just right. I simply have to make do with a set-up for a 6'2" 250lbs instructor.

TheOtherEric

There's no way tech inspectors would enforce a requirement of IDENTICAL products for driver and passenger. That's just silly. If the driver has race shell and 6-pts, then so does the passenger. Let's be realistic here.

gbaker

I'm thinking the intent is for harnesses only as seats are not typically considered part of the restraint vernacular. Perhaps "substantally equivalent safety equipment", or something similar, would better serve the purpose.

LVDell

Then you need to request another student as the seat is NOT safe for you.

we are being realistic. just trying to define what is meant by same and what is safe.

by the way, silly and safety don't belong in the same conversation

Actually no. The intent is not just for harnesses but rather for the entire RESTRAINT system.

Seats are actually PART of the restraint system. It even states so in the rules and with the harness manufacturers.

gbaker

Well, that's what I get for not reading the rules.

LVDell

no biggie gbaker

we're all, I am sure, just trying to get to the understanding of what is the "rule".

sjanes

I have a Recaro SPG as a driver's seat, but if I used that as a passenger seat, about 1/2 of my students would not be able to fit in the car, so I have a Recaro SRD on the passenger side. Also, the harnesses are not the same brand, but both are 6 pt.

It's a common sense rule. If I get into a car where the driver is in a shell, and I'm on a stock seat, then I'm going to be less than pleased, but if the driver has a Recaro shell, and I'm in a Sparco shell, then that's fine. If the driver has harnesses, then harnesses should be available for me me. If not, we both wear 3pts.

Also, just because both sides use the same equipment, that doesn't make it safe. I've seen more than one car with both side had the exact same poorly installed setup.