Jim W

In the quest for additional safety this new rule could have the unintended consequence of diminished safety for many. Certainly, committed DE folks will anty up and probably are already there, but we are alway trying to recruit new drivers. Will these newer (and occaisional) drivers simply decide to stay with standard seats and three point harnesses longer instead of upgrading both sides? The reasons could be cost or convenience. If so, how is their safety and their instructor's safety served? Just a question.

Greg Smith

HAHA, I like the way this guy thinks.

Crazy Canuck

could just buy a dedicated track car and then do what you want

986

If there is no rule like this, more instructors will be wearing three-point belts while their blue group students only upgrade the driver side safety equipment.

Instructors can theoretically refuse to ride in a car, but most would reluctantly ride with. The rule is really to protect the silent majority.

richard glickel.

Jon,

With your existing set-up - as described - (shell on driver's side, OEM sport seat on pass side), you will not have an instructor in your car at any Metro, NNJR or HVR D.E. Thus, as a novice, you will not be permitted on track. I know that it's not easy on your "student's budget" to just go and buy what you need at any given time.

You might consider continuing with the auto-x until you can afford to make your car safe for driving on-track. The car control skills you're acquiring "driving the cones" is good experience and the track will still be there when you're ready.

Dollars spent on safety are $$ well-spent.

Techno Duck

Thanks for the advice Rich. Perhaps if i really had the itch for DE i can just throw the stock drivers seat back in. I do have Momo recliners in the 951, but the intent was to keep that car as a daily driver and use my already partially stripped, no a/c 944 for the track. I figure the cost of keeping the car running on the track will be cheaper aswell.

I think i got into one of the worse possible hobbies for someone on a student budget ...

M758

Well I agree with this concern. It also applies to the need for harnesses plus seats. I believe there will be a certan population that will be down grading safety to comply with new standards. Techno's only option seems to take out the race seat and go with stock 3pt belts for DE because he can't afford the $600-$800 for a passenger's seat and harness. I fully understand the desire for equal restraints, but is it really better? Hard to say for sure really. Yeah in a perfect work everyone would just upgrade. I just don't see that happening.


BTW... I may be in the minority here, but I personally would be ok in a Novice DE group with 3pt belt even if the driver had a seat & harness. Why? 95% of the cars in first time to the track DE groups will have 3pt belts anyway. These guys a fresh and will be going much slower than in the upper groups. The addition of racing seat on the driver's side does not mean the guy will be "racing" at all. I do feel that as the driver progresses through the run groups this situation becomes more critical. For example in the last instructed group a car running R-tires, stiff suspension, roll bar and driver's side harness & seat would make me think twice about being in a stock 3pt pass seat. The reason here is the car and driver are set-up for speed, but the instructor is kind of out there. Not good.

Really maybe the best solution is to link safety mods with chassis mods.

IE.

stock seats 3pts are ok for all cars with street tires. (driver & instuctor). Driver may have racing seat/harness, but not needed for instructor

Harness & seats are required for driver (and passenger if used) for cars with R-tires.

At least this way you still allow the new guys in with out needing to mod too much and if a guy want to move from autocross and they have race seat stick them on streets. This keeps corner speeds down. I do feel if you are going to spend the $$$$$$ to run r-tires you should spend the $$$$ for safety gear.

Alan Herod

Personal observation. As an instructor, I prefer to wear my Hahns when riding in any car in any group on the track. As others, I do not have the same seats on both sides of my track car because passengers come in all sizes and I will not be changing seats based on the width of the passenger. The passenger's seats, may in fact be safer since it is bolted to the floor and the driver's seat is on sliders.

kurt M

I don't think the equal rule is new. I am sure that it is not new in the reigon I work in. National has come out with some new rules that are fully inforce for 2008 that have a wide reach into all run groups.

I for one see the value in the "equal" rule and have inspected plenty of cars. Most drivers and cars do not have any issues with the equal rule. More cars in DE have issues with methods used rather than materals.

I would expect consideration be made for my safety along with that of the students. On the other hand I wold not deny any form of protection that a student could use such as a H&N if I not have one. Consider the ooutcome if I did and there was a wreck where he was hurt due to the lack of it.

The example of a sport seat on the right and racing shell on the left side. The sport seat is ruled out already, not because it is not the same, but it is not made for a 5 or 6 point system.

TR6

I've been mulling this dilemma over lately for the 2008 season. Currently I have stock seats and factory 3 pts. My plan is to save up until I can do both sides with seats and 6 pt harnesses at the same time. I have the same issue having a dual purpose car that the wife rides in periodically. Hard shell seats won't go over well and I know I won't be swapping them back and forth between street and track. So I've already spec'd out some nice reclining sport seats that have all of the required guide holes for harnesses. They will be a compromise in terms of rigidly holding my butt in place compared to hardshell seats, but I don't race, and I figure the 6 pts cinched down tight will do most of the work of holding me in place. Sport seats will also weigh about 10 lbs more each than hard shells, but will still be about 20 lbs less each than my stock seats. Costwise, I'll probably have $1600 - $2000 in them installed if I go new instead of used. Hence, I have to budget and stay with the factory setup until I can afford to do it right.

Paul 996

Not to pour any more fuel on the fire but....a real question here (and I think the one the OP was looking to answer).

If on the driver side you have a race seat, with 6pt harness and rollbar but have a completely stock passenger seat and stock 3pt belt. Then whenever you have an instructor/passenger in the car both the driver and passenger revert to using the 3 point belts.

When the driver is solo he can use the harness.

This is legit?

RickBetterley

One of the more astute comments I heard about the equal restraint rule was that the instructor deserved as much protection as the student driver. And that a student driving in a race seat and 6/7 point harness might be driving closer to the edge than he or she would if driving in stock seats with the 3-point.
Lots to argue with in those suppositions, but in some ways it makes sense to me.
Personally, I am happy to see students with upgraded safety equipment and hate to inhibit their safety improvements. If I can't keep a student driving under control such that I am reasonably safe in Porsche seats and belts, I probably need to improve my instructing skills.
Just a thought.

NJcroc

not to beat this thread to death but if I wanted to run a recaro pro racer spa hans seat for the driver I wouldn’t put it in the pass seat it wouldn't be comfortable for an instructor to have the limited sight of that seat. I would expect a good quality race shell on the passenger side. If you want good instruction make your instructor a happy comfortable instructor.

James-man

Many race seats have tall sides on them that would prevent a lap belt from fitting snugly. Legit? Probably mostly depends on the structure of the seat.

Waterguy

As a point of discussion, when I started DE I bought a nicely set up dual purpose car equipped with a roll bar and identical racing shells and 6 point harnesses for driver and passenger. I found that whem I started in Novice on street tires most of my instructors would not bother taking the time to put on and adjust their 6-point harnesses. They would simply use the 3 point belts even when I was using my harness. I found this a bit frustrating. However, since then I have gotten faster, moved up groups and switched to R-compound tires, and now the instructors are all very appreciative of the seats and harnesses available to them, and always use them.

My point, from experience, is that it is not reasonable to enforce the concept of "identical" safety equipment at the Novice levels. It works well at the more advanced levels, and certainly by the time you are on track rubber.