mrbill_fl

Geo, I always thought, if the GCR doesn't say you Can't do it, then its allowed, LOL. (reading between the lines)

also, are remote resivior shock are no longer allowed in IT?

I'm thinking a well build $20K ITB will be in contention most every race, where a 40K ITS car may still not be competitive... (assumign a good driver)
(maybe its because I've never seen any 944's in the hunt in ITS.. but maybe it was lack of talent) -I was passing its 944's in IT7 (ITA)

924RACR

Correct, RR shocks are no longer allowed, plus you're limited to only 2 adjustments.

If you can't be up front in IT with a $20k car, you need to spend more on driver training!!!

But I disagree somewhat about the cost projections... my shocks aren't really more expensive than the off-the-shelf street shocks, maybe slightly more, but we're talking 100-200 more for the whole car, plus then they're custom and FAR more durable - you make it up in the long run! I never got those Koni yellows to last more than a year, and I've seen this on other people's cars too.

Same on motor; sure, the 2.5L is a spendy motor to build fast, but the 2.0L is just an Audi motor! VW IT pro-built motors are only around $3-5k; I've been able to build mine for no more than $3k, and it's been lasting me a long time (just completed 4th season, now getting new rings and a fresh head for the ARRC next weekend).

1Qk944turbo

Does anyone know what class a 04' 996 RSR would run in? SCCA and NASA?

SundayDriver

There are actually 2 kinds of classes. Restricted classes, such as SRF, SM and others (that I think include IT) - If the GCR does not specifically allow it, then you can not do it. Unrestricted classes, such as CSR/DSR - If the GCR does not prohibit it, then you can do it (or at least try in the gray area).

M758

You won't get anywhere close the expected HP numbers for a 2.5L 8valve motor with a 3k rebuild. 944 spec rebulds run 1k to 4k depending on the level of do it yourself vs shop rates and these motors put out hp in the mid 130's. Getting to the ITS estimated hp numbers for the 8 valve motor is going to take alot more money.

J Silverman

ITS uses the milledge motors as a benchmark, so ~185 bhp IIRC.

Geo

Indeed they do. I spent about an hour on the phone with Jon before we had our meeting when we adjusted the 944's weight. The 944 engine does not respond to IT allowed modifications like most other engines. It's NOT because Porsche did a brilliant job in designing the engine. It's because the stock engine design has some limitations built into it that cannot be rectified within the IT rules.

FWIW, I'll bet Jon could get within about 10 hp of that number for Spec 944. You see, the IT spec where he got that number allowed no more modifications than Spec 944 with the exception of the compression bump and the header isn't free in Spec 944. The compression bump won't net you much more hp, but the header will. The only other thing allowed in the IT spec Jon built his 185 hp engine to is port matching to within 1" of the mounting face. That won't net you any really noticeable gain. I've always said that the only thing keeping Spec 944 engine costs down is the willingness of the competitors to spend money. That doesn't mean one series is better than the other. All I'm saying is that if someone in Spec 944 got serious and got Jon to build an engine, the cost of being competitive in that series will get very close to IT.

Geo

Most correct.

That depends highly upon the class. ITR, not even close. In ITS, if you do virtually all the work yourself and are really clever and an really good driver, you might be able to run up front in your region. That is my hope. I'm doing everything but the machine work on the engine in my car and I'm not welding anything on my car because I weld like a blind monkey. ITA is getting to be a VERY competitive class and the cost at the sharp end of the grip is rising fast. My buddy Greg Amy (last year's ITA champ) has well over $20k invested in his car and he's been through several developments of engines and suspension. ITB is a class where a well prepared $20k car should do well if driven well. In ITC you could probably buy the championship winning car for a fair bit below that threshold.

I still say the reason you and others have had problems with Koni yellows is because of using the street performance crap. I know plenty of folks using the 8611 strut insert that I will be using in custom-built struts (by me ) and the 8212 rear race dampers. Those are tried and true race dampers. The street stuff just isn't up to competitive racing.

I think the single biggest reason for the cost of building a competitive 944 engine is the fact that the only person who has been able to consistently achieve those numbers with a legal engine is Jon. He's done the research and since he doesn't have competition, he sets the market rate (what the market will bear for THE best). I'm not knocking Jon in the least. I've also talked with him at his old shop in MA for a couple of hours and it's VERY clear he's done plenty of homework on this engine. It makes those who claim to know about 944 engines look like beginners. He has basically done "cost no object" development for IT legal engines.

cooleyjb

I just quickly glanced at the GCR and I didn't see the wording saying that IT was a Restricted class but it did mention words like if it isn't an allowed modification in the rules, you can't do it. Whereas most of the Formula classes, FF, FC, FV expicitly state that the class is restrictied.

924RACR

VERY sorry about this typo; meant to say if you can't be up front in ITB with a $20k car....

I think I got all the rest of my stuff typed right...

Jay Gratton

Well, after all of this I think I am NOT going to make my 924S into an ITS car. Seems it won't be competitive in the class and I am just going to save my pennies and buy my Spec. Miata. My boss said I can race his car next year for a small fee which is WAY below rental cost. Nice to have friends. However, I will still keep the 924 to do DE events with PCA and ZONE 1. I enjoy instructing in PCA and don't want to lose that.

Matt Marks

Keep in mind that you can run ITS cars as SP1 or SP2 in PCA and/or 944 Cup or 944 Spec depending on the amount of prep on the car and what options you choose for suspension, wheels, and engine. So there are other venues should you choose to go that route.

Jay Gratton

Good point. But I really want to run with the SCCA since that is where all of my buddies run. That is part of the reason I want to take that next step beyond DE. Of course I will love it, but having a group of people I enjoy spending my free time with is very important to me as well!

924RACR

There's always ITB... you'd **** off a lot of NE ITB guys, trust me! They got a taste of how fast the ol' 24 is back in August, when they came out to Mid-O...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=VfU9rtEHpZ4

J Silverman

Vaughan, are you going to be at the ARRC at the end of the month?