924RACR

The prep rules for ITC through ITR are the same, the difference is speed (and therefore price!). So ITS cars are expected to be faster than ITA, which are faster than ITB, etc. ITR is at the top of the stack - think 928, 944 S2, etc.

Obviously the 924 2.0L has the same cornering capacity as the 2.5L 924S, pretty much (100lbs diff is hardly enough to matter here), but the 924S does a little more on the corner exit...

Geo

OK, I probably shouldn't disclose this much, but I will anyway.

As a member of the Improved Touring Advisory Committee, I can tell you the 944/924S will not likely move to ITA anytime soon. I was in favor of this and argued for it in many of our meetings.

Last year or the year before we lowered the weight in ITS based upon the maximum achievable real world hp. The car carries a bit more weight than I think it should due to the very large brakes and superb handling. I disagree with the adders, but they are not that bad and not as much as some Honuhs carry with their little bitty no torque engines.

We looked again at moving the 944/924S to ITA, but when we worked the numbers through our process (it's NOT a pure formula) it would have made the car stupid heavy in ITA. I think what we have is probably the best situation we're going to get. Perhaps if someone fields a money no object car with an established good driver and it still can't win a case could be made to reduce the adders in the process, but again, that's not much. Truthfully, I think a money no object car would be competitive today.

If you want to complain about the "money no object" concept, there are a number of cars around that have been build that way (a number of different platforms). That is the fact of life when classifying, setting weight for a car. What is the VERY best that can be done under the rules?

Chris Camedella had such a car (although I don't think it has been updated to take advantage of rule changes in the last 4 years). Unfortunately, he's not racing seriously anymore and nobody would buy his car for $50k.

Geo

The only difference between the classes is what cars are classified in each class. There are some small differences between some of the classes (wheel width in some cases), but basically, a car is classified based upon its hp potential, weight, and other parameters that affect performance. It's not a mathematical formula, but we start with some math and work from there to make sense. It's a combination of science and art to classify a car in IT.

Bill L Seifert

Geo

The word "ain't" got left out of my last mesage. Thankfully, I don't have a dog in that hunt anymore. My 944S has some kind of engine problem, but if I ever get that fixed, I will be uncompetitive in a 944S instead of an 8v 944. The S has great potential, but costs a blooming fortune. I saw Kip Van Steenburg's car last year, and it flew. Of course, he is a great driver, so that never hurts. But he told me he had over 100k in the 944S. I would bet that a Speedsourse RX7, or a good BMW would cost a lot also, so there is never an easy answer.

I would advise to prepare the car as best you can afford, and then just have fun. Now-a-days, nobody is going to be competitive in a basically stock car.

Bill

924RACR

Agree with the comments about cost here... I'm approaching $20k in the build, over the years, of my 924 - not including consumables, of course. We haven't left much on the table... and it shows!

But at the same time, that's not what it takes to get out there and playing - which is what you should do! Estimate around $6k to get a solid 924 ITB car built, up and running, probably more like $10-12k for an ITS car (924S or 944 non-S). I will also mention that though the car might ultimately have less competitive potential, the 924S might be easier to build than the 924, with only the exception of the engine internals, because the engine management stuff is all newer, more common, and more robust than the old CIS. I think it takes a lot more specialized knowledge to get the ITB cars running right, plus they usually don't run when you get them...

Jay Gratton

Thanks guys, I really just want to start with what I have and learn along the way. I want to get into a Miata, but $$$$ is a little harder to come by and I want to make sure I enjoy it first before I dump $10K into a built Miata. If nothing else I will have a GREAT DE car still. For now, I am only interested in doing a few races a year. Just enough to keep my novice permit up to date. Tinman944 is going to help me put the cage in acording to the GCR's. From the sounds of it I am only going to be able to run in ITS and that will be fine. I am sure there will be someone for me to run with in the middle as I feel I can make up for the car's short comings with my own skill which I think is decent. Time will tell!

mrbill_fl

Vaughan, that car looks like its on rails compared to the rest of the field!

Soooo, what does it take to make a 8k car middle of pack, to a 20k front runner in ITB?

M758

NASA has the 944 spec class. Good news about that is that any SCCA car can race in a NASA. I am not sure what classes your buddies run in, but they will be race legal in NASA an somewhat competitive out of the box. Of course to be truly competitive they will need to be prepped to the NASA rules. In fact with the NASA performance touring system, just about any street car ever made can be turned to a race car and be resonably competive in one of about 5-6 classes. Which class the car is in depends on where the car starts out (base class) and what mods are done (more mods = higher class).

924RACR

LOL - start with GOOD shocks!! Custom-valved Bilsteins, none of this off-the-shelf twin-tube crap for me. Then add a butt-load of spring - 660# front springs and 34mm rear torsion bars, in my case. I am running less swaybar than most, though (stock 23mm front, 19mm rear).

But as for what it takes - open the rulebook, read from front to back, and make a list - everything! Shocks, spherical bearings, built motor, fresh trans with LSD, etc etc... data logger... radios... All the same stuff that'll need to go into pretty much any full-build car...

Geo

Amen. Unless constrained by the rules, don't even dink around with performance street crap (such as 30mm rear TBs). It's just NOT up to the task of racing. These are heavy cars and require much higher spring rates for racing, especially in the front with the struts which are notorious for having crummy geometry once you get out of a very narrow range of motion.

I am still going to go with adjustability, but NOT street performance dampers. Get race dampers whatever you decide upon.

While it seems most racers hate the rule book, I agree with Vaughan here. The rule book is your friend. It tells you everything you can do and you need to take advantage of every possible gain. I go through the rule book on a regular basis and even highlight things I think I can exploit.

M758

That is one of the biggest differences between 944 spec and ITS. Since in ITS you race other cars you need to get the max from the suspension. In 944 spec since we only race other 944's we have the luxury of running the cheapo street stuff. That stuff is good enough to race on, but you would get beat by cars using stiffer springs and better shocks.

Geo

The stiffer springs and TBs are no more expensive. The dampers are and the spherical bearings are however.

M758

Yep... springs are springs and the price does not go up with rate. What costs money are the dampers needed to control those stiffer springs. Stay with softer springs and you can "get bye" with cheap shocks. If you go with springs stiffer than about 400 front and the 30 mm rear those cheapo shocks just can't keep up. This means you need to open the checkbook for some real racing shocks. Running a 924 or 944 in IT means unless you spend MASSIVE Dollars you will be down on motor. So the only way to try to keep up it to ensure that your suspension is top notch to the limits as you will need to make up speed in the corners. Running in ITS with cheapo suspension with a cheapo motor is nice way to get beat by ITA cars.

BTW... 944 spec cars are just a bit slower that the good ITA cars I believe so that goes to show where a cheap suspension stock powered motor 944 will run.

Jay Gratton

Hey guys, this has been all very helpful. Do you have a place you would suggest buying these suspension parts.

J Silverman

www.paragon-products.com sells everything you need, unless you want bilstein race shocks.