5 pt or 6 pt harness for DE?
#61
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FACT - in all but the most extreme cases (where the car starts to deform substantially), a cage stands to harm the occupant more than help. Since it is a FACT that it is the occupant's projecting out of the seat that is the dangerous part of most collisions, anything that is harder and more irregular in shape that there is to hit will be more injurious. Fortunately, harnesses keep racers in place pretty darn well. We don't have to worry so mcuh when we're on track. You do NOT get the same performance from an OE 3-point.
PROVE IT
You have NO data to support your "fact" that a cage is more dangerous than not having a cage in an accident on the street. None, zero, zilch, nada.
You say to think and not be led astray by kneejerk reactions but your response that a cage is exactly that. A kneejerk reaction with a bunch of guesstimation supporting it.
John, a number of people on this board take what you say as fact. I read all of your posts because you usually make very well thought out and good points. However when you post something like this all you are doing is making people believe that your opinion is an actual fact.
Until there is such research that looks at the saftey aspects of a cage in street use including the benefits and dangers noone can say that a cage/roll bar is not as safe as no cage for street use. It's a very simple cost benefit analysis that has not data to show what the true costs and true benefits are.
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We strayed off topic onto cages in streetcars but it is an important topic where I 100% agree with Redlineman. I also think dual users are being lazy. They need to stick to the compromise of bolt-in cages and remove the cages for normal street duty unless going to and fro events and on track with a helmeted head. I know this is a pain but I believe John that the issue is not roof crush and race seats or lack thereof but hitting steel bars that protrude 3" inches into a small space already. Even harness bars can be bad. Remember that 5/6pt harnesses stretch like 12" @ 20gs. I have no idea how far I can fly out of my seat with 3 points.
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PROVE IT
You have NO data to support your "fact" that a cage is more dangerous than not having a cage in an accident on the street. None, zero, zilch, nada.
You say to think and not be led astray by kneejerk reactions but your response that a cage is exactly that. A kneejerk reaction with a bunch of guesstimation supporting it.
John, a number of people on this board take what you say as fact. I read all of your posts because you usually make very well thought out and good points. However when you post something like this all you are doing is making people believe that your opinion is an actual fact.
Until there is such research that looks at the saftey aspects of a cage in street use including the benefits and dangers noone can say that a cage/roll bar is not as safe as no cage for street use. It's a very simple cost benefit analysis that has not data to show what the true costs and true benefits are.
You have NO data to support your "fact" that a cage is more dangerous than not having a cage in an accident on the street. None, zero, zilch, nada.
You say to think and not be led astray by kneejerk reactions but your response that a cage is exactly that. A kneejerk reaction with a bunch of guesstimation supporting it.
John, a number of people on this board take what you say as fact. I read all of your posts because you usually make very well thought out and good points. However when you post something like this all you are doing is making people believe that your opinion is an actual fact.
Until there is such research that looks at the saftey aspects of a cage in street use including the benefits and dangers noone can say that a cage/roll bar is not as safe as no cage for street use. It's a very simple cost benefit analysis that has not data to show what the true costs and true benefits are.
To quote Greg Smith "I've been through the whole roll bar and harness debate more times that I can count. Bottom line is it's my opinion, take it as you wish."
If exposed, irregularly shaped cages were the safe way to go, car designers would not have spent millions of $$$ over the years designing energy absorbing flush-paneled interiors.
Take a 2x4 and whack yourself in the forehead. Then take the 2x4, drive a nail through it, point the nail at your forehead, and repeat. Which hurts worse and does more damage? Irregular shape = magnification of force. Crude example, absurdly simple concept.
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Please explain to me how the padded rollcage bar in my car is more dangerous than the unpadded steel targa top frame that Porsche put in my car? BTW, with the race seat being bolted to the floor, my head if farther away from the cage than it was from the targa top frame when I had the stock seat.
Seems we've all learned a thing or two in 20 years, eh?
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Please explain to me how the padded rollcage bar in my car is more dangerous than the unpadded steel targa top frame that Porsche put in my car? BTW, with the race seat being bolted to the floor, my head if farther away from the cage than it was from the targa top frame when I had the stock seat.
I don't know. I will say that the OEM's prove their designs which include how they pad and protect us from metal. SFI has a spec for rollbar padding for the helmeted head. It is known in racing that heater pipe type insulation which feels nice and soft does not provide the researched impact requirement to keep us safe. Those are the only two kinds of padding I know of. I Do not know of any specifications for rollbar padding tested for the unhelmeted head. So for all you know the rollbar pad you have is ineffective on the unhelmeted head and the steel bar is closer to your head than the targa top frame. I assume Porsche research their designs so perhaps the targa frame is not an issue. Maybe statistically it is too far away? I think in the absence of cubic dollars to do our own research with our own team of safety specialists we all have to make up our own minds with the available info reliable or suspect. The important think is to keep thinking about it. We owe it to love ones and the future of our sport. If we aren't responsible the powers that be will step in to protect us from ourselves through legislation or economic pressure like increased insurance costs.
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Can someone give me the basic advantages and disadvantages of the 5pt vs 6pt harness. Things like safety issues, installation differences (which is a more invasive installation), PCA DE rules (is one favored over another). I guess I'm unclear on the concept of the 6pt (I understand how the 5pt works). I don't race but am planning to move to harnesses and guide bar next season for DE and member track days. I realize I may have to swap out my seats too. Still running the factory 3 pt belts now. I want to try to keep everything as reversible as possible in terms of installation so the car can be returned to stock. I also would like to keep the 3pt belts for street use even after installing the harnesses. Otherwise, my wife will never ride with me again.
I can explain, in great detail, the performance differences between the two systems, with information not plucked from my ****, but taken from the research of the world's leading experts. You won't find all the answers in one place. I've spent the last few years gathering it from every source available, and put it together in a coherent understanding of how this stuff works. That's what I do.
If you would like that information, PM me and I'd be more than glad to help!
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I don't know. I will say that the OEM's prove their designs which include how they pad and protect us from metal. SFI has a spec for rollbar padding for the helmeted head. It is known in racing that heater pipe type insulation which feels nice and soft does not provide the researched impact requirement to keep us safe. Those are the only two kinds of padding I know of. I Do not know of any specifications for rollbar padding tested for the unhelmeted head. So for all you know the rollbar pad you have is ineffective on the unhelmeted head and the steel bar is closer to your head than the targa top frame. I assume Porsche research their designs so perhaps the targa frame is not an issue. Maybe statistically it is too far away? I think in the absence of cubic dollars to do our own research with our own team of safety specialists we all have to make up our own minds with the available info reliable or suspect. The important think is to keep thinking about it. We owe it to love ones and the future of our sport. If we aren't responsible the powers that be will step in to protect us from ourselves through legislation or economic pressure like increased insurance costs.
Personally, I think the most dangerous thing I did to my car was lower it since my head is about the same height as the bumper of a F150 when I'm driving.
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That was my point. You stated it as a fact. Even used the word "fact" in all caps before your statement. Now you are just saying it's your opinion.
I could just as easily say, maybe it's cheaper to build stamped steel parts that meet the requriements instead of exceeding them by 10 times.
As you said, you've been through the debate more times can count, however you bring NO data to the debate but argue like there is.
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Cooley;
Instead of taking potshots at me and trying to tear my statements down, why don't you support your own arguments? Tell us how having a cage in a street car with 3-point belts and no helmet is just as safe as bone stock? Let's hear YOUR reasoning.
Otherwise, you dislike of what I'm saying is obvious and has been achieved. So noted already.
Instead of taking potshots at me and trying to tear my statements down, why don't you support your own arguments? Tell us how having a cage in a street car with 3-point belts and no helmet is just as safe as bone stock? Let's hear YOUR reasoning.
Otherwise, you dislike of what I'm saying is obvious and has been achieved. So noted already.
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The intensity of this discussion suggests that someone should do a study. Who do you think we could get to sponsor some underpaid, overworked grad student to build a simulation model?
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Cooley;
Instead of taking potshots at me and trying to tear my statements down, why don't you support your own arguments? Tell us how having a cage in a street car with 3-point belts and no helmet is just as safe as bone stock? Let's hear YOUR reasoning.
Otherwise, you dislike of what I'm saying is obvious and has been achieved. So noted already.
Instead of taking potshots at me and trying to tear my statements down, why don't you support your own arguments? Tell us how having a cage in a street car with 3-point belts and no helmet is just as safe as bone stock? Let's hear YOUR reasoning.
Otherwise, you dislike of what I'm saying is obvious and has been achieved. So noted already.
Do you see where I'm getting with this. You apply one standard to something and then change 180 degrees and apply the same standard you thought was bad to the next debate.
You ask me to support my own arguments when all I am doing is saying there is no data to support or falsify your argument. I can support that all day long. I think you believe that my arugment is that cages are safer. It never was, I was arguing your total lack of supporting data, but I'll play devils advocate for you.
As for my reasoning on why a cage might be safer on the street than without a cage. Well let me say that these are just guesses/opinions. Just like what everyone elses statements incuding yours. Please note that gbaker who works every day in this industry has also said that there has been no study conducted concerning cages in street cars.
The last few fatal wrecks that I've seen pictures posted of have had major intrusions into the drivers compartment. Maybe a properly installed cage with dash bar and good side impact areas would have prevented this intrusion into the drivers compartment.
I've been in 3 accidents on the street, none of which were my fault. Two were accidents where I was rear ended by someone who didn't stop for a light and were traveling roughly 25-30mph. Both times my hands never left the steering wheel and my body wasn't violently thrown about the drivers compartment. The other was when I was traveling 75mph down the interstate and someone decides to make a Uturn across the median from the left lane. I got the car slowed down to maybe 60mph before impact and she was doing zero. My body didn't impact the window, roof, steering wheel etc. It is my opinion that in all 3 of these accidents the roll cage/bar would not have increased the amount/intensity of my injuries.
My opinions for why cars don't have roll bars/cages integrated into the B pillars. Maybe it's not because they are too dangerous, but it's because they are overkill and the cost is prohibitive. Maybe it's simply because of appearance. Maybe since they already meet the standards they don't feel a need to. Maybe because it's too difficult to get your leg over the door bar when wearing a dress. Maybe because SFI padding doesn't go well with fine Cornithian leather. I could go on for days why I think the auto manufacturers don't put cages/bars in a street car.
I've never heard of anyone dying in an accident on the street because they had a roll cage/bar in their car. Have you? I have seen some nasty accidents that might have had different and possibly better outcomes if there had been a cage, both on the street and at DE's.
What about the fact that I'm 5'8" tall and a cage in my car still is further away from my head than the structure of the car is for someone who is 6'3". Now the distances to impact are equal but mine is a bit more stout. What about that possibility?