fatbillybob

We strayed off topic onto cages in streetcars but it is an important topic where I 100% agree with Redlineman. I also think dual users are being lazy. They need to stick to the compromise of bolt-in cages and remove the cages for normal street duty unless going to and fro events and on track with a helmeted head. I know this is a pain but I believe John that the issue is not roof crush and race seats or lack thereof but hitting steel bars that protrude 3" inches into a small space already. Even harness bars can be bad. Remember that 5/6pt harnesses stretch like 12" @ 20gs. I have no idea how far I can fly out of my seat with 3 points.

cooleyjb

The problem is that noone has studied this and all you are doing is making an unbased assumption. Just the same as the people who John disagreeing with, and for the same reason. It's still a bunch of guessing. There is an increase in risk but there is also an fundamental increase in safety. Its that whole risk vs. reward debate and right now it's still composed almost entirely of armchair science.

fatbillybob

Well you are right and you are wrong. While none of us armchairs are safety engineers, besides sleeping at a holiday inn once, the likes of real saftey engineers like Dr. Melvin, Hubbard etal tell us face to face in seminars and transcripts from SAE scientific pappers what works and what does not. There is no guessing. The real problem with us armchairs is trying to understand all the details of such work being non-engineers with no cubic dollars to have the likes of corvette racing install side impact crush boxes and the like. While the science is not as tested as OEM passenger car crashtests, We keep trying and learning but the science is most certainly not armchair. Good thing we got guys like Redlineman to keep us from "installing" like armchairs.

cooleyjb

Show me the paper that has evidence about the increase in danger vs. the increase in safety of a cage/bar on a street. That is all I am saying. I have yet to be shown one. The whole no roll bars/cages on the street is based on guesstimation and voodoo as far as I can tell.

We as racers send mixed messages when we show the faults in one argument but then have the same faults in our own arguments concerning other safety gear. The example of harness 'needing' a roll bar has the same merit as roll cages are bad on the street. Yes, there is an increase danger but there is also an increase in safety

LVDell

Do you wear a helmet on the street in a car with a rollbar/cage?

cooleyjb

No it's too hot and it messes up my hair. But who cares. It's a about as useful a question as:

Do you have a cage in every car you wear a helmet?

Neither Your question nor mine does anything to support or falsify the claim that cages are more dangerous than not having a cage in a car on the street.

cooleyjb

Sidenote: I can walk into a dealership and buy a Boxster that low and behold has a rollbar.

JW in Texas

Greg,
I have a 6 point Schroth Hybrid in the cup. Go check it out this weekend while you are out there. I much prefer the hybrid over conventional 5 & 6 points for comfort during enduros. It's what the NASCAR guys run for the same reason. The 6 point straps go through metal loops on your laps belts & are fabric loops themselves that then go over your shoulder strap latches before you insert them into the buckle. Take a look here for: Profi III-6FH

http://www.on-trackperformance.com/s...ness_index.htm

gbaker

Our Badger-based contributor is simply pointing out that the subject has not been studied scientifically. As in, develop a hypothesis and test it in a controlled setting. There are obvious pros and cons, and until one can figure out how to weigh the two it's all speculation. Interesting and valuable speculation to be sure, but not the basis for a conclusion.

And for the uninitiated, the only "expert" worth listening to is a 50th percentile male Hybrid III dummy. It is ruthlessly objective and is never prone to render an opinion cloaked as science.

cooleyjb

And he rarely complains.

fatbillybob

Agreed! I hear your point. I thought you were talking about general armchairing as opposed to this specific issue where I know of no papers or data about street injuries from steel tubes next to your head. There could be some data I don't know. When you have no data I guess all you got is luck and personal common sence and sometimes both are not enough. Until then I will assume that all that crushable plastic that OEMS cover metal with and the lack of steel dashboards are a clue that perhaps it is a good idea to keep steel bars away from my head. I'm not real familiar with boxsters but it would seem that the seat design and bar design make it pretty tough to hit them even if you reach up and arch your back way back unbelted. They look more like fashion bars than rollover hoops. But still most likely engineered with lots of testing and I do not think you can generalize one datapoint to all datapoints. My side bar halo bars are just inches from my head and I dink them when I check my mirrors. Anyway, Your mileage may vary. Your posts are thought provoking.

schwank

Though I personally would not drive on the street in a fully caged car, I do drive to and from the track with a rear roll/harness bar with no helmet.

That said, I have a VERY hard time believing that a company like Porsche would sell a car like the GT3 RS, that can be registered for street use as sold, if they were exposing themselves to liability in the case of accidents involving that car. If this was the case, the car would be sold in such a configuration as to preclude street use altogether.

chris walrod

Anyone here an SAE member or have access to this paper? It may be interesting reading.

cooleyjb

I'll check tomorrow and see if I can get it through UW. However I won't be able to respond until after the weekend.

RedlineMan

Hey;

The baseline point I am making is to THINK.

The stuff I am offering is ALL based on my own experience as a professional collision repairer and insurance appraiser for 20 years, my work in building and maintaining track and race cars, and the work of the people mentioned here like Mssrs. Melvin, Hubbard, Schroth, Gramling, Baker, etc., etc. There is no guess work in what I am saying. While there may be inference, it is based on real experience. Short of someone sledding these exact setups dozens of times, it is all we have, and it is not at all far fetched.

I don't think it takes a scientist to understand that there are risks anywhere you turn. My point is to not be lead astray by knee-jerk reactions like you have to have a roll bar to be truly safe. Bull! Know every side of an issue, and make the most informed decision you can.

FACT - in all but the most extreme cases (where the car starts to deform substantially), a cage stands to harm the occupant more than help. Since it is a FACT that it is the occupant's projecting out of the seat that is the dangerous part of most collisions, anything that is harder and more irregular in shape that there is to hit will be more injurious. Fortunately, harnesses keep racers in place pretty darn well. We don't have to worry so mcuh when we're on track. You do NOT get the same performance from an OE 3-point.

My configuration of choice for a dual use car is a solid, well designed harness mount bar, a good seat, and the best belt system you can get installed properly. Factoring in every parameter, that is the safest dual use system you can get in my opinion. if it is easy to install & remove for every event (like my 944 roll bar), so much the better.
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There ARE indeed certain facts we can take from this.

- In a majority of minor to moderate hits, a 5-point works very well.
- In the nastier hits, a 6-point can work better, and offer real and measureable benefit.
- Fortunately, most drivers will never "need" that advantage, but...
- Neither will work to its peak if it is not installed properly.
- a 5-point is much easier to install properly than a 6-point.
- Due dilligence, information, and discussion are good things.