pat056

My scariest spin was at Road Atlanta, turn #1. I came down the front straight much faster that the car in front. I was coming up the hill and saw we was even slower than I thought he'd be, so I ever- so-lightly tapped the brakes at the crest of the hill. 2 360's later, I come to a stop at turn 3 staring at the corner worker, wondering how the heck I didn't smack a wall!! As I sure you've summized, I hit the brakes when the rear end was the lightest and..."away we go".

My dumbest move? Saving tires, I decide to do a practice session with Hooziers SO5's on the rear and Kuhmo 710's on the front. Well, the Hooziers heat up 1st, causing the car to push. THEN the Kuhmo's heat up. Now I get a couple of good laps. The bad news? The Hooziers go away 1st, the front Kuhmo's are still sticking, now I have a rear end that wags like a dog's tail! Needless to say, I gingerly get off the track swearing never to mix tire again.

kasturbo

My one and only was last weekend at Nelson Ledges. My first time driving on a wet track and I forgot to turn down the boost. I learned real fast that your car does accelerate in wet grass. Both feet in and all I could do was wait to kiss the tire wall.

Larry Herman

Excellent post Todd. My humbling experience 23 years ago, crashing coming down the chute at Summit Point, was for the exact same reason.

TD in DC

Thanks Larry.

I actually deleted my original post since it seems that I sometimes experience negative consequences when I post about my mistakes here. If you thought it was helpful, I will repost.

TD

mrbill_fl

geez, which time....

1) I had 'friend' torque my wheels, and lost the LF wheel, on 2nd lap, at S/F (moroso, about 100mph), and watched the approaching wall in the rearview mirror... stopped just short. (now, I torque my own wheels)

2) Ran into back of car on 1st lap, (Homestead T3, 50mph) after car infront of me checked up for yet another spinning car. (I was too aggresive, should have backed off...)

3) Spun at Daytona T1, in buddy car under braking (stopped short of wall)... (lack of seat time, poor braking skills, qualifying session.)

4) Door to door contact (hard hit), when leader shut the door on last turn of last lap, spun, went from 2nd to 4th... (moroso T9), (should NOT have tried the low percentage pass, and settled for 2nd)

5) Saved it, when RR tire lost air, at Sebring T1 (DE) (No, I still dont have real time tire pressure display)

6) Drove off into grass at Sebring T13, when setting up slower car for pass, and he checked up for slower car infront of him... (DE is NOT a test day)

That's all I can remember... but sure there were more.

OriginalSterm

Reading this and counting up my own, I'm a little embarrased by how many I have in only 30 track days (DE).

1.) Toe of the boot at WGI - Eagle Talon Race car with shaved RA-1s in the rain - locked up the wheels braking into the toe, drove straight off into the grass

2.) BeaveRun - Porsche 951 - First hot lap and didn't realize how fast I could get going on the front straight, not enough brakes for T1 and ended up sideways sliding off the track.

3.) Mosport - Porsche 951 - T2, instructor trying to teach me different lines all over the track. This time, the line he showed me would have been ok if I had moved my brake point back and kept it out of the marbles. Ended up sliding most of the way down the hill and nearly clipping the inside wall with the passenger front fender before ending up backwards and then sideways again off track. Kept with the line I liked after that and didn't have an issue. Rock hard, chunked street tires didn't help...

kurt M

What the heck got $50 and dinner out of it...

Geo

Attaboy!

A Wayne gives it away for free....

Veloce Raptor

Huh? What negative consequences? It was an EXCELLENT post, Todd.

Larry Herman

Yeah, put it back Todd.

TD in DC

Thanks guys. Here is my original post with just a few minor edits for readibility:

I think the most common causes for crashes and spins are (and NOT necessarily in order of frequency):

1) not readily detectable track conditions (e.g., antifreeze or oil on the track with no warning signs);

2) readilty detectable track conditions (e.g., antifreeze or oil on the track when you saw warning signs, or snow -- yes, my first race was in a blizzard and I did go off track);

3) sudden and unpredictable mechanical failure (e.g., motor seizes or a-arm breaks and you didn't have any warning signs);

4) predictable mechanical failure (e.g., you had a warning that something might go wrong, but you ignored and pressed forwards anyway);

5) other driver's error that you could not avoid (e.g., you are hit by other car without warning);

6) other driver's error that you could have avoided (e.g., you were following too closely without an exit strategy when other driver spun);

7) driver's error that led to exceeding the limit (e.g., you turned in too early, came in too hot, pinched the car, etc . . . ); and

8) driver's error in failing to control a car that has exceeded the limit (e.g., you did not possess the driving skills necessary to catch a car that is beginning to go out of control).

Crashes and spins caused by numbers 1, 3 and 5 typically are not the fault of the driver.

Crashes and spins caused by numbers 2, 4, 6, 7 and 8 are complete driver error.

The problem is that many people who have a crash or a spin believe, or at least claim, that the cause was in the former group, when in reality the cause was in the latter group.

If you are going to learn something from a crash or a spin, you have to be brutally honest with yourself and take the time to examine what happened. You may even change your mind over time about the crash or spin as you gain more experience.

I have not had very many spins or offs. I can count them on one hand. Unfortunately, two of them were doozies.

I had three spins (two very slow on track spins and one gentle spin off the track) over the course of the first two weekends when I transitioned from a 996 with a soft street suspension to a 944 with a very stiff racing suspension. These were no big deal and due to me not being used to the speed with which a car with a racing suspension and racing tires could react to inputs and how suddenly the rear end can break loose. These spins were error types 7 and 8. After these three low-speed spins, I learned my lesson and had no spins or offs for over six-months.

The first of my two serious offs was during my first race during a blizzard. I failed to disconnect my rear sway bar, and I was using hard RA1s. I kept seeing these soft spec E-30s passing me, and, on the third lap, I made a classic rookie mistake of thinking "If they can do it, I can do it." I picked up my speed, and when I hit T17 at VIR (Hogpen), I gently spun around and off track. No big deal, except that the grass was covered with about 1 inch of snow . . . so I slid . . . slowly . . . all . . the . . way . . .down . . . the . . . hill . . . and into a tire wall. It really sucked. I wrinked up the passenger side of my car and broke the passenger window (didn't hit hard at all), BUT I got stuck in the mud and had to watch the rest of the race from the bottom of the hill wondering when the next car was going to collect me. That day was awful and SO, SO, SO many people were spinning off track (including many rennlisters), even on the pace lap. What lesson did I learn? Drive your own car, and do not base your driving decisions on the capabilities of other drivers or cars. At the time, I didn't realize how much of an advantage in the snow the super soft suspensions of the spec e30s was. Big mistake. Just because they can do it did NOT mean I could. This spin and "wreck" involved error types 2, 7 and 8.

I almost had an off when the overflow tube popped off my coolant reservoir and I put antifreeze on my own front tires. Fortunately, I controlled the car, did not spin, and only put two wheels off just before Oak Tree at VIR. This was a type 3 incident, for which I do not blame myself since I controlled the car after dumping antifreeze on my front tires. Also, my maintenance had not been deficient, and there was no immediately obvious reason why the hose popped off, other than perhaps that my car was pissed at me for some reason.

The second of my two big offs was at Watkins Glen, which is discussed ad nauseum here: https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-and-drivers-education-forum/285814-td-in-dc-meets-mr-tirewall-at-wg-t10-antithesis-of-kingleh.html I learned more about driving from this wreck than I possibly could have imagined at the time. It was 100% my fault, and it was a type 7 and 8 incident. In a nutshell, I was pushing very hard, I turned in a little too early at T10 in Watkins Glen, and I made an incorrect judgment call with respect to how to get the car back into control. Consequence? I hit the wall at approx 87 mph.

What did I learn from the wreck?

First, I learned that you need to pay very close attention to obstacles off the track, and decide carefully about when and where it is wise to push very hard.

Second, I learned that when you are very close to the limit, very small errors can have big consequences. As such, if you choose to drive close to the limit, you must be precise and spot on: If you cannot do so due to traffic (i.e., in a race) or because you are tired, you must leave a little safety cushion.

Third, if you start to go into a drift, you MUST immediately and affirmatively take all steps necessary to get your car back in control. Specifically, even if you are in a neutral drift, the fact that you are in a drift in the first place means that your wheel should be opened immediately and you should take whatever weight transfer steps are appropriate for the moment. You should not assume that the drift will scrub off enough speed such that the car will "come back to you in a second." If you do not immediately take steps to control your car, it might go out of control when you scrub off more speed because, despite the fact that you currently are in a neutral four wheel drift, either the rears or, more likely, the fronts are likely to grip first when enough speed has scrubbed off.

Fourth, if you enter a corner at full throttle from a straight where you have been full throttle since the last corner, you have to remember that you have denied yourself the ability to shift more weight to the rear of the car if necessary. As such, under some circumstances, you might want to lift or tap before a corner in order to provide yourself with the ability more affirmatively to set the weight to the rear of the car.

Fifth, despite learning as a novice that you should never lift in high-speed corners, you can, and should, lift, gently, if necessary in response to your rear wheels braking loose. If your rear wheels break loose, a gentle breathe of the throttle can be enough to help you get hooked back up again. In other words, never treat general advice as "rules written in stone." You must do whatever it takes to control your car, and, if you are racing, to go as fast as possible. In short, do not ignore your own instincts merely because someone else has said "you should never [fill in the blank]" or "you should always [fill in the blank]"

In the year since I had the Watkins Glen wreck, I have not had any spins, or even wheels off, despite numerous races and DEs, apart from deciding to drive straight off at Summit T1 while learning to trailbrake with Chris Cervelli [hire him as a coach if you can . . . it changed they way I look at driving]. I am driving more slowly than I did before the wreck, but I am safer and wiser.

Finally, I agree with JO and others that there is very little difference between most spins and offs and wrecks. You owe it to yourself to understand what you did wrong. And remember, without video and data to keep yourself honest, the chances are that you have misperceived what happened, particularly considering how quickly things like this happen. From the turn in to the moment I hit the tire wall was less than 1.8 seconds. How could anyone accurately perceive and rememeber all of their actions in such a short period of time, particularly in light of the fact that you did not expect to wreck and you are in shock after the wreck? Get video at a minimum. Data is also helpful.

Thanks to all of you here at Rennlist for teaching me so much and for being so decent.

smlporsche

Todd-

That was a great piece.

I hope you don't mind me copying it for my instructors notebook...

TD in DC

Feel free. I posted it so that people can learn from my experience aka mistakes.

paradisenb

I've been off twice. 1st time happened when I was riding shotgun in an instructor's car. Hot into a hard right hander, drove straight off into the grass. No harm no foul.

Second time: Last month at Road Atlanta. First run. Damp track. T3 just at the top of the hill. Hard braking zone. When I began braking, out to left came the rear. I mean way out. Counter steer. No hope. Droped two wheels and got pitched into the wall that sits 20-30 feet from the track. Ruined my toy.
Lesson (s): 1) I had never driven on a wet track so I think 50% normal aggression and 50-60% of speed is in order next time.
2) I had race seats, 6 pt harnesses, Hans and of course a helmet. I will never drive any car or ride with anyone w/o a cage again. The only marks I got were bruises from the Hans. My car had zero damage in the cabin. No broken glass. No bent doors BUT, If I would have hit the driver's side door it would likely have been very different.

Take notes you guys who drive street cars w/stock seats and belts. Water and oil happen regularly. Limited experience is ramped. Running out of talent is forever. If you are aggressive, like me, and want to get lap time, get a race car, otherwise play 'putt - putt in DE forever and drive at tracks with few walls and lots of run off.

paradisenb

I resemble this post.