ronbo56

First time: My third DE, second day at WGI: had just roared thorugh T10 (the nasty off-camber LH) and was so proud of myself that I had total brain lock going into T11 and forgot to track out. Not satisfied with pinching the turn, I lifted, then fought the ensuing tank-slapper and lost. No damage (to the car) that didn't buff out - I went off to the right, where there was a lot of runoff before the tires - but I decided I wanted a lot more experience before I took the Ferrari back on the track. I know I could handle the same situation better now than when I had next to no experience, but I'm really happy with the 944. Lesson 1: driving requires 100% concentration, 100% of the time. Lesson 2: tracking is much more fun when you don't have to think about the cost of repairs. <sweats copiously>

Second time: Mid-Ohio in the 944, this year. I was experimenting with different braking and turn-in points into Madness. I pushed too hard and found the limit. 270, no off, pitted in to be inscribed in The Book. Serious ego damage. Lesson 1: you're driving a great car on a great track; sometimes that's enough. Lesson 2: perhaps Madness really isn't the best place to try out a bunch of new stuff. <kicks own a**>

I'm not counting Skippy School, where if you aren't spinning, you aren't learning. I spun maybe 2 or 3 times, below average for the class, never went off and never came near anyone. Mostly I just kept my foot down, stopped counter-steering when I was pointed where I wanted to be, and kept going. Lesson 1: Formula cars rule. Lesson 2: Skippy school is worth every penny. <giggles uncontrollably>

Great thread.

Geo

Shoot son, I don't go fast enough to go off more than that.

tkerrmd

Thank you everyone for the replies. As always the members of this forum rise to the occasion and come up with a wealth of shared knowledge to benefit the rest of us!!

How many think the above quote is really true, I have not yet gone of in a race, should I just do it and get it out of the way!!?

thanks to all so much!!!!
tom

PS please keep them coming, I have so much to learn, and teach!!!

Greg Smith

I disagree with the 100% concentration part, with more and more experience it takes less and less concentration and things become instinctual. Schumacher could carry on conversations with the pits while he was out setting fast laps, but of course that's an extreme. I'm sure I'll get some interesting replies to this

M758

I have gone off track so many times in my 8 years of track driving I cannot being to tell you all the stories or reasons. Most were in Race practice when working a corner entry trail braking and getting just wrong. This does not mean I don't understand why I went off. If fact when running every lap in practice at 10/10ths always looking for more speed you WILL go over the limit and go off track. All you need is to try to carry 76 mph when you all you can do is 75 mph or adjust the line a bit only to find out that you can only do 73 on that line. I think that some have a very DE mindset that going off track is the "worst thing" in the world. Well if you looking to race or even just time trial going off track or getting sideways is just part of it. I consider it what happens when you are exploring the limits and really you can't explore the limits without exceeding them from time to time. Of course there are smart places to push like stink and not worry about an off or a 360 or two and there places a little sideways action is spooky.

The thing is of all those hundreds of off's I have had only 1 off resulted in any car damage and I have had minor car to car contact twice. All times the issues were minor cosmetic stuff or very easily repaired. I know all about what happen during the contract cases and the car to car stuff was during races and one off with car damage was qualfying. Why did the happen? Mostly beacuse I was pushing really hard and either exceeded the limits or when in close another racer and a small error was made exceeding the limits.

M758

That may be true in DE land, but if you are racing... well 100% concentraion on driving means no working on racing. A good racer puts in may 50 to 75% effort on driving thus giving him the rest of his mental capacity to plan how to pass or defend or determine things like pit stratagy or even if he needs more spring rate or shock damping at one corner of the car to make it faster.

924RACR

Late adder to this thread, but... OK, aside from the aforementioned bail to avoid another out-of-control car (or the occasional 2-off pass!) I almost invariably go off when I am pushing REAL hard to catch up, after falling behind for one reason or another. I'm talking about the ones that end up in body damage. I'm down a spot from where I figure I should be, and trying to go faster than ever... very often, more recently, the car will get sideways, but hey, that happens a lot, and I fail to correct sufficiently, so rather than having a big long drift, the butt-end slowly comes around. Or the front end drifts wide, fails to make an apex, etc, and pushes wide into the hard stuff.

Both cases - full throttle, no lift, no brake, only steering to correct. Easily correctable items, for the most part, if you get off the gas, but when you're trying to chase someone down and make a pass, that's the last thing you're prepared to do. It's just a question of how much you're prepared to risk.

Flying Finn

I completely agree with the quote.

If you never slide, spin etc. you'll never learn to control them and if you're never sliding, pushing or otherwise on the "edge", you simply are not trying hard enough.

When I raced dirt bikes, every time I practiced and if I didn't fell, I knew i had not tried hard enough and your fellow riders will let you know about it...

Look at the in-car camera shots of pros and even though theuir lines are clean and the car is going nicely, their hands are doing a lot of qwork when they are really pushing.

This is why I tell people to go out and learn on a slippery surface, whether it's just wet road or even better, on snow or on ice. When you're learning on a slippery sirface, you're doing it more safely since the speeds are slower. Once you've learned to control your car on wet, snow or whatever and are going through fast corner on a dry road cource and your car starts to slide, you're prepared to control it. And that can turn a catastropic chrash into a slight controlled slide and instead of the red flag (& ton of $$$ wasted or worse), session to continue.

Don't go and practice that in a race, DEs, Porsche's Camp4, or autox are places to learn to spin, slide etc.

We've talked about doing skid pad clinic at Moroso (where they can get it wet). In fact Gold Coast tried it once during the DE but it was done without letting people know in advance and there was really no one to instruct it properly (I was out of town ) although even without instructin, skidpad, whether wet or dry is a good place to learn how it feels when the car is on the edge of losing grip &/or going around.
I need to talk to Dan doing it again with better preparation, possibility to hose the car after the skidpad etc. (they use the canal water to get it wet...)

kurt M

Late adder #2 So far the only bent metal was a drovers side rear skirt from backing into a trash can in the paddock. Jacked a rear wheel up and beached me in front of the gang.

Side bar question. What do you tell your students about offs?

I am reluctant to tell new students that going off is OK and expected. (it is but that comes later) Yes it is true that 1,2,3 or 4 off is part of learning to dance on the edge. I teach what to do and that it will likely happen at some point. In the years I have been droving on track it seems that the # and severity of the wrecks in DE are going up. I don't know if this is true or not. The stock off the shelf new Porsches are faster than full on race cars from only a few years ago. The 997S is a silky rocket that requires you to use the spedo to see how freaking fast you are gonig. Students are also showing up with cubic $ race cars in droves.

Flying Finn

I know but good thing "almost" doesn't count, kinda like me almost losing a bottle of Finlandia to you!
Just having fun!

M758

Yes,
Novice students never get told before an off it is OK to go off. First timers need keep it on the road as offs at that level are doing things wrong, big time. Only when you advance in the groups AND are looking for more speed does going off become "routine" and something to be expected. If you are driving a nice street car in DE then you probably never want to go off ever. If you are driving a "track car" then have commited to this addiction and going off is just a part of the experience.

hammerwerfer

I am usually in the passenger seat when I go off the track.

Students run out of talent on a regular basis. Twice last Thursday.

A wet and slimy Nordschleife has a way of catching out the novices, even with some guidance from the right seat. It is not far to the armco.

Geo

What's that? You lifted the rear of your skirt in the paddock in front of the gang?

tkerrmd

No law enforcement here!!
I love the track, DE and racing. I also love instructing. I have found this forum contains such a wealth of knowledge that books could be written from it (any one interested?)
I want to know and learn more and faster than I can on my own and this sure is the place to do it!
thanks!
tom

MRW

First Club Race (Sebring), missed shift in 17, looped car, came to rest 2 ft. from inside wall looking at fellow racers coming throught he corner. Had a great view of a very excited corner worker waving a yellow flag for all he was worth. Classification: stupid rookie mistake. Same weekend, Sunday afternoon, end of Enduro, crew calls the checker as I approach turn 7. Congratulate myself on getting through the weekend, approaching 13 I see one last guy I can catch, start to push it, even though the race is over and I just need to get to the checker. Hoosiers going away, I get a good run out of 16, except that I've got massive push and go up over the gators, try to drive back on, hook the left front and spin in the middle of the back straight, while all the guys I worked so hard to get by pass me. Compound the error by coming in to black flag instea of taking the checker. What a moron.

The tendency is to laugh and say, no harm, no foul, except that both incidents could have been a lot worse, and were a result of a simultaneous lapse of concentration and judgement. I hope that I'm better, and smarter, for having done this and gotten away with it. My two cents.