So who is at fault in this track accident?
04-03-2007, 04:16 AM
#76
Rennlist Member
OK, I'm a newbie and to many this may seem like a dumb question, but isn't the responsibility of the passing car to complete a safe pass??? I agree that the S2K could would have avoided contact if the driver was more proactive, but he's not the driver who failed to maintain control of his car. The S2K was in control. The contact was caused by the driver of the 911 who was out of control. In my mind, the out of control driver is at fault.
04-03-2007, 07:59 AM
#77
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by LiveNupe
OK, I'm a newbie and to many this may seem like a dumb question, but isn't the responsibility of the passing car to complete a safe pass??? I agree that the S2K could would have avoided contact if the driver was more proactive, but he's not the driver who failed to maintain control of his car. The S2K was in control. The contact was caused by the driver of the 911 who was out of control. In my mind, the out of control driver is at fault.
04-03-2007, 08:28 AM
#78
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by Chris M.
But it wasn't an off by the 911. He was headed off, should have kept heading off, but instead came back on and we see what happened.
04-03-2007, 10:21 AM
#79
Rennlist Member
OK, Kiddies, I can't believe there is still any debate about this...
This is DE, and this incident was totally avoidable metal to metal. Let's do a little role playing.
You're the driver of the 911 and head into the corner a little hot, screw up, early apex, spin the car, and while the car is spinning, you say to yourself, "This is going to be fun! Now I am looking foward to being hit by the S2000 driver because he should be accellerating and trying to hit me. Wheee! This is like bumper cars!"
Or, as the driver of the 911 car, shouldn't you rather be sayng to yourself, "You dumb ****head. I hope I don't hit anything and nobody hits me. Hey, ths is DE. Hopefully I'll be OK."
Now, let's pretend you are the S2000 driver. We all know that the ride-along was not an instructor, but let's pretend he was.
S2000 driver sees 911 driver lose control and start to spin. We assume at this point that the corner workers are throwing the yellow flags with great vigor. Anyone remember what a waving Yellow means??? Instructor says to S2000 driver, "Oh boy, this is going to be great fun. Stand on the gas and see if you can hit the 911. Yipeee!"
Or would a sane instructor say, "Watch out! That 911 is out of control. Back off carefully and safely and wait until things settle down. Once they have settled down, then proceed with great caution."
Any of you who have Instructor #1 should have fired him at once and started over from scratch.
A good friend of ours, a pro Porsche racer, always says, "Build a caccoon around your car and yourself. Anything that happens to you or your car is always your fault, no matter what. After all, you could be home on the couch wielding a beer and the clicker. You have chosen to be out on the track. In doing so, you have accepted the responsiblity of keeping yourself out of trouble and not adding to someone's else's mistake."
OK, school's out!
This is DE, and this incident was totally avoidable metal to metal. Let's do a little role playing.
You're the driver of the 911 and head into the corner a little hot, screw up, early apex, spin the car, and while the car is spinning, you say to yourself, "This is going to be fun! Now I am looking foward to being hit by the S2000 driver because he should be accellerating and trying to hit me. Wheee! This is like bumper cars!"
Or, as the driver of the 911 car, shouldn't you rather be sayng to yourself, "You dumb ****head. I hope I don't hit anything and nobody hits me. Hey, ths is DE. Hopefully I'll be OK."
Now, let's pretend you are the S2000 driver. We all know that the ride-along was not an instructor, but let's pretend he was.
S2000 driver sees 911 driver lose control and start to spin. We assume at this point that the corner workers are throwing the yellow flags with great vigor. Anyone remember what a waving Yellow means??? Instructor says to S2000 driver, "Oh boy, this is going to be great fun. Stand on the gas and see if you can hit the 911. Yipeee!"
Or would a sane instructor say, "Watch out! That 911 is out of control. Back off carefully and safely and wait until things settle down. Once they have settled down, then proceed with great caution."
Any of you who have Instructor #1 should have fired him at once and started over from scratch.
A good friend of ours, a pro Porsche racer, always says, "Build a caccoon around your car and yourself. Anything that happens to you or your car is always your fault, no matter what. After all, you could be home on the couch wielding a beer and the clicker. You have chosen to be out on the track. In doing so, you have accepted the responsiblity of keeping yourself out of trouble and not adding to someone's else's mistake."
OK, school's out!
04-03-2007, 10:27 AM
#80
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by ZAPmobile
OK, Kiddies, I can't believe there is still any debate about this...
. I think we (and others) have stated the obvious and no amount of posting is going to sway anybody at this point.
04-03-2007, 10:44 AM
#81
Race Director
Originally Posted by ZAPmobile
This is DE...
Originally Posted by ZAPmobile
A good friend of ours, a pro Porsche racer, always says, "Build a caccoon around your car and yourself. Anything that happens to you or your car is always your fault, no matter what. After all, you could be home on the couch wielding a beer and the clicker. You have chosen to be out on the track. In doing so, you have accepted the responsiblity of keeping yourself out of trouble and not adding to someone's else's mistake."
They both had contact and both are at fault. Both had ***** bigger than their brains that day. It happens.
04-03-2007, 10:48 AM
#82
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Originally Posted by Matt Romanowski
S2000
The 911 didn't just demo derby the guy - he made a mistake (although very avoidable). Spun. I think almost all of us have done that once or twice (hopefully not in the same way he did - I'm really good on spinning into corners).
The guys in the S2000 should have expected issues by watching the 911 go by and early apex, track out too far, put wheels off. I think almost anyone driving and watching the track and their surroundings would have seen that spin coming. For the S2000 to see all this, not acknowledge the fact that the 911 is going to spin, and then driving up the inside when their is trouble - well - your kind of asking for it. I blame the S2000.
The 911 didn't just demo derby the guy - he made a mistake (although very avoidable). Spun. I think almost all of us have done that once or twice (hopefully not in the same way he did - I'm really good on spinning into corners).
The guys in the S2000 should have expected issues by watching the 911 go by and early apex, track out too far, put wheels off. I think almost anyone driving and watching the track and their surroundings would have seen that spin coming. For the S2000 to see all this, not acknowledge the fact that the 911 is going to spin, and then driving up the inside when their is trouble - well - your kind of asking for it. I blame the S2000.
Sadly, I am going to agree with Matt.
04-03-2007, 11:22 AM
#83
Race Director
Originally Posted by LiveNupe
OK, I'm a newbie and to many this may seem like a dumb question, but isn't the responsibility of the passing car to complete a safe pass??? I agree that the S2K could would have avoided contact if the driver was more proactive, but he's not the driver who failed to maintain control of his car. The S2K was in control. The contact was caused by the driver of the 911 who was out of control. In my mind, the out of control driver is at fault.
What was the 911 driver thinking? I have no clue.
I can tell you what the S2000 driver was thinking. 911 is going off straight and I am getting heck out of here. Hey one of you posted that 3 things could happen as the car started off track left. 1) Go off straight, 2) Walter Rohl rally save, 3) Hook it back. Well the S2000 was doing the right think if 1 or 2 happend. Unfortunalty number 3 happened.
Now I have probably had more car spin infront of me than alot of you guys. Let me tell you avioding a spinning car takes the ability predict where it is going and some luck. Some cases you need slow way down. However I have also avioded 2-3 spins by actually accelerating trying to get through BEFORE the car crossed my path. Worked great each time and was the right choice.
As for this being DE they only thing that makes it different in DE is the 911 should have slowed it down much sooner since it is DE and the S2000 should have slowed at turn in much more to allow for the wild 911. Other than that I still can't blame the S2000 driver for the contact. While in hindsiight is it easy to say should have this should have that the bottomline is the 911 shot back accross the track in dangerious manner. Sure the S2000 needs to learn from this, but it is not his "fault".
Just so you guys don't think I say this because I have never been off a few years ago in a Race at Cal Speedway I had a Honda run me off track left outside a corner. Well I was in hot battle and I wanted to "stay on it" once I hit the grass... Well bad idea as when I tried to get back on track my car hooked and went spinning torward the middle of the track in on coming race traffic. I GOT LUCKLY in that no other driver's hit me, but if they had it would have been MY FAULT. Period, bottomline, end of story. Even in DE it would have been my fault. Why I allow my car to go out of control and re-enter the racing surface in a Dangrious manner. The fact that the other cars missed hitting me was due to luck, skill on THEIR part.
I consider this similar to the Shawn Sampson vs Ghettoracer Spec Miata qualfing crash. GR's car was flopping around the track all over the place and when Shawn gambles and picks one side to avoid the errant car and gets it wrong. The it somehow GR says it was Shawn fault since he picked the wrong side.
I see the same situation here. 911 looks to be going off straight and the S2000 does the right thing leaving room and trying to get out of the corner when the 911 makes very quick and uncontrolled change of diretction that leads it right into the path of the S2000. Sure seeing it after make it clear the S2000 did not pick the right path, but that is easy to see once you know where the car was going. Every time I see the video it think the 911 is going to take it straight off as he had plenty of time to know he was in trouble long before he hit the dirt.
04-03-2007, 11:36 AM
#84
Rennlist Member
BTW, keep beating this dead horse, really opinions of both sides.
Joe, I understand your argument, but it was a DE, no prize at the finish. Honda guy should have slowed and let sh*t happen. I have had a car pass me, go off hot, farm for 200ft and then hop back on in front of me while I peddled patiently. I have also have had a car shoot across the track, tank slap, back across, tank slap, then regain control. (if you can call it that). Oh, I really peddled and heavy brakes for that one. I think we all agree, totally avoidable, both were stupid.
Joe, I understand your argument, but it was a DE, no prize at the finish. Honda guy should have slowed and let sh*t happen. I have had a car pass me, go off hot, farm for 200ft and then hop back on in front of me while I peddled patiently. I have also have had a car shoot across the track, tank slap, back across, tank slap, then regain control. (if you can call it that). Oh, I really peddled and heavy brakes for that one. I think we all agree, totally avoidable, both were stupid.
04-03-2007, 11:58 AM
#85
Hard to know who is at "fault" without knowing the exact rules of the event. For example, was it an open track day with no passing signals required? Afterall, seems clear that both drivers made choices they probably wish they could change if they could go back in time.
In any event, in light of the rules that apply to track events (both racing and DE), I am becoming increasingly less interested in who is at fault for an incident (apart from 13/13, but that theoretically deals with your own driving) . . . I mean, in the end it changes little . . . there is still damage to the cars, you can't go back and change time, etc . . .
I am also coming to the realization that you probably should not be on the track at all if you cannot afford -- financially or emotionally -- lose your car.
If you think nothing can happen to you on the track during a race, or even a DE, you are deluding yourself.
An incident could be due to numerous causes, including:
An error on your part (EVERYONE makes mistakes);
An error on the part of someone else (you can't always avoid other people's mistakes);
Errors on the part of multiple drivers (which appears to be the case here);
A mechanical failure on your car;
A mechanical failure on someone else's car; or
maybe you will be lucky enough that you will never be involved in an incident (which most likely will be possible for those who do not race and who do not push their cars past 7 or 8/10s . . . not that there is anything wrong with that).
As such, I am more interested in the attitudes of drivers (including my own) and how they react if an incident does occur. Drivers who are concerned about driving well, who try to learn from their mistakes, and who take responsibility for their errors (I mean at least by apologizing, or even just showing empathy, if financial recompensation is not an option -- and I am not saying financial recompensation should be expected) are pretty much fine with me. Now, drivers who are a menace and keep doing the same out of control or overly aggressive crap all the time are a completely different story . . . There is a huge difference in my mind between an inadvertent and somewhat "understandable" mistake (of course every mistake can be avoided, but since we are human the "no mistake" standard is just unrealistic for most) and the type of mistake that is inexcusable since it resulted out of a bad attitude (e.g., overaggression or repeatedly making the same exact mistake after being corrected).
I will say that it is funny to me how some people can be so judgmental when other drivers make errors but when they make one it is perfectly understandable despite the fact that they are an excellent driver :roll:
If you cannot afford to lose your car (either financially or emotionally), you probably have no business having it out on the track in light of the risks. Sad but true.
In any event, in light of the rules that apply to track events (both racing and DE), I am becoming increasingly less interested in who is at fault for an incident (apart from 13/13, but that theoretically deals with your own driving) . . . I mean, in the end it changes little . . . there is still damage to the cars, you can't go back and change time, etc . . .
I am also coming to the realization that you probably should not be on the track at all if you cannot afford -- financially or emotionally -- lose your car.
If you think nothing can happen to you on the track during a race, or even a DE, you are deluding yourself.
An incident could be due to numerous causes, including:
An error on your part (EVERYONE makes mistakes);
An error on the part of someone else (you can't always avoid other people's mistakes);
Errors on the part of multiple drivers (which appears to be the case here);
A mechanical failure on your car;
A mechanical failure on someone else's car; or
maybe you will be lucky enough that you will never be involved in an incident (which most likely will be possible for those who do not race and who do not push their cars past 7 or 8/10s . . . not that there is anything wrong with that).
As such, I am more interested in the attitudes of drivers (including my own) and how they react if an incident does occur. Drivers who are concerned about driving well, who try to learn from their mistakes, and who take responsibility for their errors (I mean at least by apologizing, or even just showing empathy, if financial recompensation is not an option -- and I am not saying financial recompensation should be expected) are pretty much fine with me. Now, drivers who are a menace and keep doing the same out of control or overly aggressive crap all the time are a completely different story . . . There is a huge difference in my mind between an inadvertent and somewhat "understandable" mistake (of course every mistake can be avoided, but since we are human the "no mistake" standard is just unrealistic for most) and the type of mistake that is inexcusable since it resulted out of a bad attitude (e.g., overaggression or repeatedly making the same exact mistake after being corrected).
I will say that it is funny to me how some people can be so judgmental when other drivers make errors but when they make one it is perfectly understandable despite the fact that they are an excellent driver :roll:
If you cannot afford to lose your car (either financially or emotionally), you probably have no business having it out on the track in light of the risks. Sad but true.
Last edited by TD in DC; 04-03-2007 at 12:14 PM.
04-03-2007, 11:58 AM
#86
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I think the take home message here is that if the Honda driver was watching the Porsche, he would have known something bad was about to happen and could have taken steps to be ready for the outcome. That is where better visual techniques come into play.
As to who is at fault, I don't think you can blame anyone. It's a track and **** happens. I think both drivers exhibited their novice status. And please don't try to blame the instructor. These things happen so fast, there is no real time to prepare your student other than to say, "watch your speed, that guy in front may spin back onto the track". Or the Porsche instructor, "you turned in early, watch your speed.......... don't try to get back on track........... drive straight off............ Oh well.............."
As to who is at fault, I don't think you can blame anyone. It's a track and **** happens. I think both drivers exhibited their novice status. And please don't try to blame the instructor. These things happen so fast, there is no real time to prepare your student other than to say, "watch your speed, that guy in front may spin back onto the track". Or the Porsche instructor, "you turned in early, watch your speed.......... don't try to get back on track........... drive straight off............ Oh well.............."
04-03-2007, 12:15 PM
#87
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by bobt993
Joe, I understand your argument, but it was a DE, no prize at the finish. Honda guy should have slowed and let sh*t happen.
Even in a race, I would have been VERY cautious and gone to the VERY inside
of the track if I contemplated repassing him. THis almost happened to me in Atlanta on Saturday, after the last turn. Class leader went agricultural on track left, I did not accelerate until I was sure he would stay on the track rather than shoot across it. I'm happy with staying in 3rd rather than a possible wreck.
