garrett376

Here's a sample from a prior race (although my camera goes out of focus at the best moment!!!) - an example of this identical situation that was easily avoided by just letting up on the throttle... he didn't get a 13/13 even though he offroaded more than otherwise.

http://www.c4widebody.com/sample1.mov

Jay Gratton

The 911. The 911 driver took a late pass and missed the apex. Then instead of driving off the track he tried to save it and that is what happened. I was impressed that the two cars kept driving. I would have pulled over and checked my car first.

LVDell

Obviously. That is not what is in question. What is in question is fault. Fault was established the second the S2K lost all foresight and decided to be a hero instead of letting the 911 continue to finsh his acrobatics.

By the way, as you stated, if your car can drive after this incident, which in this video he could, wtf are you thinking you would get out and check for damage. Have you gone mad? Pit in. Appraise and move on.

This is getting a bit ludicrous for a situation that is blatantly obvious. I sure hope that nobody that has chimed in that the 911 is the one at fault is an in structor with PCA. If so, you should have your credentials revoked. This video is a great teaching instrument as to what NOT to do and have the opportunity to teach your student how to handle a situation like this. I'll give you a hint......it's not WOT!

Time to jump ship.

multi21

After watching the videotape a number of times, as others have said, it does appear to be a Euro event. (Last white compact in the video is a Euro only model).

I understood everything in Italian that was said and the passenger was definitely not an instructor. Any instructor worth their salt would have told the S2000 to back out of the throttle and NOT try to overtake as the car that just passed was doing his best impression of a John Deer.

My vote goes to the S2000 for fault.

ZAPmobile

For all those who want to have that S2000 behind them at the next DE, raise your hands!

GT3 Chuck

I didn't know Frank could speak Italian

bobt993

Dell, you beennn had. Read his quote and look at the DATE of the POST.

LVDell

I sure hope that is the case. Problem is that is the stance taken by many here.

butzip

Have to agree 100% with above. Passing an out of control car = bad idea. lift for 1 sec, you will get by him anyway, why try to be a hero? Check ego, drive car home.

S2K - fault
911 - made a mistake

M758

Guys,
The 911 did look to be going "off". When the 2000 made the move to get around the 911 was headed to grass. At this point what do you do? Any good driver will try to simply get out of the way. He left room and assumed the 911 was going off straight. All would have been well if the 911 had not hooked it back in. What was the S2000 going to do? Stop on track and wait for the 911 to bounce around and come to stop? Hell no you complete your turn and go where you thing is safe. Really had the S2000 backed off a little bit he just might have hit the 911 as it went flying accross. Hard to say for sure.


I have had LOTS of cars spin in front of me and every situration is different and some times you pick the right way to go and others you don't. When ever a car is going to lose it you leave them room and once they go off you get the heck out of there. Slowing down to much yourself is bad news because that may cause you to spin plus any car behind you now has two cars to dodge if you really slam on the brakes. Sometimes it is your only option.

No yes the S2000 made mistake in trying get by. Hindsight it is easy to see this, but we don't know what the S2000 was doing grip wise. Plus bottomline is the 911's car was out of control and no longer on a predictable path. Not being predictable is the issue. Watch the video and you will think the 911 is going off the dirt straight it is time for you simply drive by. Well nope.. the 911 guy just tries to save it for way too long and gets even MORE out of control. My feeling is if my car is spinning unpredictably and someones hits me... well my fault.

I agree with this assertion
4 Mistakes by the 911 driver
and 1 error in judgement by the S2000 driver. Really take away any ONE of those and no contact occurs.

I wonder what you would be saying if the 911 and S2000 were swapped (ie S2000 passing and going off track). My guess is you'd be blaming the S2000 all the way.

BTW... I am a PCA & NASA instructor. I would show this video to students to teach them many things.

1) Don't do late outside passes...
2) Going in hot and early apexing will cause you to run out of room on the outside of the corner.
3) If you are going off straight STAY OFF TRACK and slow the car down. Don't try be a hero and save it because other cars are coming. BE PREDICTABLE
4) Watch the cars infront of you and realize that unless you are very aware you can easily get caught up in someone elses' bonehead moves and that is a really easy way to ruin your day. Try to get too "racy" and you have limited your options and therefore have to rely more on the "other guy" doing it right.

Really the S2000's big mistake was not really really slowing down once the 911 made the outside pass. Once the S2000 make the turn to get out of the corner his options were very limited. In DE you need to see the outside pass as potential issue and simply give that guy room and don't leave yourself in place where you need the other guy to do it right to come out clean. Even so I can't blame the S2000 for the incident. The 911 guy made pass he should not have then failed to make the corner, failed to keep the car on track and then tryed to play hero and resulted in wreck. The 911 driver just made too many mistakes to not be at fault.

MarkPcar

This is why I don't do DE's or track days anymore.

LVDell

Nope. If that was the case and the roles were reversed then the 911 would be at fault. And to say that a car is unpredictable when out of control in front of you is only partly true. It is still very predictable that either one of three things would happen. (1) two feet in and come to rest of to the left whether it be on the grass or the wall. (2) the driver saves it and looks like Walter Rohl in a controlled slide but in this case, very unlikely. (3) tries to save it and either ends up coming to rest like option 1 or gains front traction and snap oversteers right back on the track. A simple lift of the accelerator would have saved all parties. Listen to the video. The S2K went to WOT when the 911 was losing his apex and yet only hit him in the drivers side door area. A lift in this situation would have allowed the out of control 911 to head straight across the track in front with no contact. Remember, these are bodies in motion with inertia so the only way to inhibit forward progress is to lift (or brake) if in control, which the S2K was.

Veloce Raptor

Exactly.

}{arlequin

disregarding s2k's bad judgment for a moment... this was clearly not a red rungroup. simple track-oriented inexperience would be enough for the s2k drover to NOT be able to imagine a car shooting back across the track. to us, the fact that it's a 911 makes it even more obvious, but whatever the car, i'm sure he didn't expect to see the car shooting cross track.

while jumping to wot seems boneheaded, maybe he was just trying to get 'da **** out of dodge. fault? yes, but mostly inexperience. it's one of those things that unless you witness them and are lucky to avoid, or experience shooting across track yourself, you may not be aware of it. long before being told 'both feet in' i knew that some spinning cars have a nice astronomically predictable trajectory, while others hook-'n-shoot.

same for the 911. since when going into a corner 'too hot' makes you at fault? it's how you learn what 'too hot' is in the first place. late outside pass? nothing wrong w/ it (as long as the turn in would be proper.) trying to save it and 'fight it out'? still ok- to an INexperienced drover. you can blame him all you want, but if he simply 'didn't know' then he didn't know. nothing would change that. both at fault, malo at fault, 911.... doesn't really matter. inexperienced decisions of *both* amounted to a crash.

i am also willing to bet that if they keep at it, neither of them will *ever* make a bad decision in regard to this type of situation. both will realize why 'predictability' is key (and how to achieve it), as well as why it is convenient to assume that every other person out there is an idiot. that way you'll know that slowing down and 'watching' things develop is probably more prudent.

Chris M.

But it wasn't an off by the 911. He was headed off, should have kept heading off, but instead came back on and we see what happened.