So who is at fault in this track accident?
03-30-2007, 04:40 PM
#16
Race Director
Originally Posted by sjanes
Depends on the rules of the event. If it was open passing, they share responsibility (911 lost control, S2000 should have seen it coming). If it was point-by passing rules, the 911 was ahead of the S2K and didn't give a pass. The worst time to just pass someone without a signal is when they are out of control cause you don't know where they are going, and they probably aren't expecting you to pass them.
It all depends on what the rules are. To me, it looked like Mr S2000 saw the 911 going off as an opportunity to get around him. He would have been better off waiting to see where the 911 was going, and then "retake" the lead, if point-bys weren't required.
The 911 drvier was at fault for going too hot into the corner, but the S2000 driver was at fault for not paying attention to the other cars on the track (namely the 911)
Of course, we're all terrific Monday morning quarterbacks, aren't we?!?
-Z-man.
03-30-2007, 04:43 PM
#17
Burning Brakes
911's fault fo sho.
The 911 made a pass requiring skill that clearly is beyond his level, as evidenced by the early apex and wash out left - then made an extremely dumberer move by not going 2 feet in when he knew he had JUST passed a guy and that guy would be tracking out right where he was making a very ill-advised attempt to "save it" on the edge of the track surface. Trying to make a save like that requires even more skill than the original pass, so he's obviously driving way over his head. Maybe he just didn't know the "usual result" of this save attempt (but now hopefully he does) or maybe he just let the heat of the moment cloud his judgement. Whatever the reasons, he tried 1. a difficult move, then 2. an extremely difficult if not impossible move at a very dangerous time and place, and obviously did not have the skills to execute either.
Maybe the S2K should have "seen it coming", but if we're handing out blame I'd give him less than 10% of it. He might have been on the edge in his own mind and lifting or turning would have in his mind made him lose control and slide right at the 911. Better to stay in traction and take a chance the other guy doesn't do something really stupid rather than spin and hit the guy for sure if he does the "right" thing.
The 911 made a pass requiring skill that clearly is beyond his level, as evidenced by the early apex and wash out left - then made an extremely dumberer move by not going 2 feet in when he knew he had JUST passed a guy and that guy would be tracking out right where he was making a very ill-advised attempt to "save it" on the edge of the track surface. Trying to make a save like that requires even more skill than the original pass, so he's obviously driving way over his head. Maybe he just didn't know the "usual result" of this save attempt (but now hopefully he does) or maybe he just let the heat of the moment cloud his judgement. Whatever the reasons, he tried 1. a difficult move, then 2. an extremely difficult if not impossible move at a very dangerous time and place, and obviously did not have the skills to execute either.
Maybe the S2K should have "seen it coming", but if we're handing out blame I'd give him less than 10% of it. He might have been on the edge in his own mind and lifting or turning would have in his mind made him lose control and slide right at the 911. Better to stay in traction and take a chance the other guy doesn't do something really stupid rather than spin and hit the guy for sure if he does the "right" thing.
03-30-2007, 04:43 PM
#18
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While watching I was waiting to hear the instructor screaming to let up- it was obvious the 911 was out of shape and was about to get something wrong.
I'm assuming the passenger was an instructor and the event was DE.
I'm assuming the passenger was an instructor and the event was DE.
03-30-2007, 05:13 PM
#19
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911's fault.
Why?
Came in hot and pushed out wide. This was an issue, but the problem is on the way out he hooked in bad back into the track.
S2000 Guy... Well at first it looks like he did not give the 911 plenty of room, but looking at it again he gave the 911 lots of room on the outside and when he the 911 when off he had 2-3 car widths of space between. This space was qucikly lost once the 911 hooked it back on track. Yeah the S2000 guy should have backed off, but it appears that when 911 guy goes off he will stay off track. Plus at that time the s2000 was already in corner exit mode and had a slightly tighter line.
Why?
Came in hot and pushed out wide. This was an issue, but the problem is on the way out he hooked in bad back into the track.
S2000 Guy... Well at first it looks like he did not give the 911 plenty of room, but looking at it again he gave the 911 lots of room on the outside and when he the 911 when off he had 2-3 car widths of space between. This space was qucikly lost once the 911 hooked it back on track. Yeah the S2000 guy should have backed off, but it appears that when 911 guy goes off he will stay off track. Plus at that time the s2000 was already in corner exit mode and had a slightly tighter line.
03-30-2007, 05:24 PM
#20
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S2000
The 911 didn't just demo derby the guy - he made a mistake (although very avoidable). Spun. I think almost all of us have done that once or twice (hopefully not in the same way he did - I'm really good on spinning into corners).
The guys in the S2000 should have expected issues by watching the 911 go by and early apex, track out too far, put wheels off. I think almost anyone driving and watching the track and their surroundings would have seen that spin coming. For the S2000 to see all this, not acknowledge the fact that the 911 is going to spin, and then driving up the inside when their is trouble - well - your kind of asking for it. I blame the S2000.
The 911 didn't just demo derby the guy - he made a mistake (although very avoidable). Spun. I think almost all of us have done that once or twice (hopefully not in the same way he did - I'm really good on spinning into corners).
The guys in the S2000 should have expected issues by watching the 911 go by and early apex, track out too far, put wheels off. I think almost anyone driving and watching the track and their surroundings would have seen that spin coming. For the S2000 to see all this, not acknowledge the fact that the 911 is going to spin, and then driving up the inside when their is trouble - well - your kind of asking for it. I blame the S2000.
03-30-2007, 05:27 PM
#21
Nordschleife Master
Alright, I'll chime with personal experience identical to this sans the contact. Of course it was one of the only sessions I did NOT have the camera running (battery ran out 5 min before this incident).
This was at VIR back in December. Running in Red with many other skilled drivers in GT3's as well which is a really good gauge for closure since alot of us were running the same car. I noticed another GT3 gaining quickly on me in the uphill esses. So I lift slightly to time it where he reaches me at the exit of the final apex of the esses and he can ovetake me in the short time before you have to get ready for the pucker location that is southbend (high speed off camber partially blind hard left mini sweeper to a downhill landing area and track out). Needless to say I don't really push it there to this day. However, this guy did push it. Usually when I am running with other GT3's I jump right back in behind after the pass and then chase. BUt this time I could just "sense" his entry was a bit hot into soutbend. Sure enough it was. But in stead of continuing off into the grass and coming to rest somewhere on the way to oak tree, he tried to save it. He tried to throttle out after he lost right rear traction and as soon as grip came back to the front he SNAP OVERSTEERED back across the track at a very high speed and just about took off the front of my car. He shot across the track hit the grass on the other side, starting doing 360's taking out braking markers and came to rest just feet from the wall.
So, moral to the stoary and whom deserves the blame in the video posted here?
Blame? I placed at least 51% (if not all) of the blame on the S2K becasue he should have been aware of the environment that was just created and anticipate the worst but hope for the best and then continue on. He didn't.
Moral for me? Becasue I definitely WAS aware of the situation possibilities unfolding I errored on the side of worst but hope for the best. Just a touch of throttle release and I saved both he and myself from damage.
This was at VIR back in December. Running in Red with many other skilled drivers in GT3's as well which is a really good gauge for closure since alot of us were running the same car. I noticed another GT3 gaining quickly on me in the uphill esses. So I lift slightly to time it where he reaches me at the exit of the final apex of the esses and he can ovetake me in the short time before you have to get ready for the pucker location that is southbend (high speed off camber partially blind hard left mini sweeper to a downhill landing area and track out). Needless to say I don't really push it there to this day. However, this guy did push it. Usually when I am running with other GT3's I jump right back in behind after the pass and then chase. BUt this time I could just "sense" his entry was a bit hot into soutbend. Sure enough it was. But in stead of continuing off into the grass and coming to rest somewhere on the way to oak tree, he tried to save it. He tried to throttle out after he lost right rear traction and as soon as grip came back to the front he SNAP OVERSTEERED back across the track at a very high speed and just about took off the front of my car. He shot across the track hit the grass on the other side, starting doing 360's taking out braking markers and came to rest just feet from the wall.
So, moral to the stoary and whom deserves the blame in the video posted here?
Blame? I placed at least 51% (if not all) of the blame on the S2K becasue he should have been aware of the environment that was just created and anticipate the worst but hope for the best and then continue on. He didn't.
Moral for me? Becasue I definitely WAS aware of the situation possibilities unfolding I errored on the side of worst but hope for the best. Just a touch of throttle release and I saved both he and myself from damage.
03-30-2007, 05:42 PM
#22
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As far as causing contact, the S2000 definitely, if this is a DE. I've been in this situation probably 2 times each DE event as an instructor and about the same in every race. Most DE instructions are the same. Back off, brake or whatever, if someone in front may get out of control, and the Porsche was very obviously out of control. You will almost always stop before reaching the car ahead. I would have been screaming to stop if I was in the left seat of the S2k. When we would have stopped/passed the Porsche, I then always say, "see, that's why you always need to leave room at a DE."
Race wise, it's a racing incident. The Porsche had the corner, then lost it. If you want to win, you may take the chance for a pass, if you're the S2k. I don't want to repair sheet metal, so I back off in these situations. I don't know about 13/13 rules.
David
Race wise, it's a racing incident. The Porsche had the corner, then lost it. If you want to win, you may take the chance for a pass, if you're the S2k. I don't want to repair sheet metal, so I back off in these situations. I don't know about 13/13 rules.
David
03-30-2007, 05:50 PM
#23
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each had some fault, there were one mistake after anther on the part of both drivers. but i think the 911 has more to 'blame' for lack of better word. he "initiated" the incident.
passing on the outside of a turn, he didn't set up the pass, had to apex early (if you can call that apex, he was way off apex), went wide, gone off, spun back on. now if you are racing for a few million dollars, sure, bump the guy do whatever... but this seems to be a "fun" event. wait for a passing signal, wait for the straight, just wait. also, as he gone off, both feet in, stay off course. dont come back on the pavement.
sure, the s2k should have taken some evasive action. but to expect him to come to a complete stop and wait for the 911 to spin by is not realistic.
passing on the outside of a turn, he didn't set up the pass, had to apex early (if you can call that apex, he was way off apex), went wide, gone off, spun back on. now if you are racing for a few million dollars, sure, bump the guy do whatever... but this seems to be a "fun" event. wait for a passing signal, wait for the straight, just wait. also, as he gone off, both feet in, stay off course. dont come back on the pavement.
sure, the s2k should have taken some evasive action. but to expect him to come to a complete stop and wait for the 911 to spin by is not realistic.
03-30-2007, 06:36 PM
#24
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Man, if this had a poll, it might read 50/50 on fault. It shows how there are two points of view. Instructor should have seen this a mile away. 911 was careless and the Honda could have avoided by not entering the turn hot. If either driver had been on their game, no accident. BOTH at fault.
03-30-2007, 06:37 PM
#25
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Originally Posted by Matt Romanowski
S2000
The 911 didn't just demo derby the guy - he made a mistake (although very avoidable). Spun. I think almost all of us have done that once or twice (hopefully not in the same way he did - I'm really good on spinning into corners).
The guys in the S2000 should have expected issues by watching the 911 go by and early apex, track out too far, put wheels off. I think almost anyone driving and watching the track and their surroundings would have seen that spin coming. For the S2000 to see all this, not acknowledge the fact that the 911 is going to spin, and then driving up the inside when their is trouble - well - your kind of asking for it. I blame the S2000.
The 911 didn't just demo derby the guy - he made a mistake (although very avoidable). Spun. I think almost all of us have done that once or twice (hopefully not in the same way he did - I'm really good on spinning into corners).
The guys in the S2000 should have expected issues by watching the 911 go by and early apex, track out too far, put wheels off. I think almost anyone driving and watching the track and their surroundings would have seen that spin coming. For the S2000 to see all this, not acknowledge the fact that the 911 is going to spin, and then driving up the inside when their is trouble - well - your kind of asking for it. I blame the S2000.
At any rate, since I'm pretty sure its a Euro event, I highly suspect that the "instructor" is not an instructor but a ride-in , a friend etc... I have participated in an event in France and they are nothing like our DE's. Very free events, almost zero rules with passing anywhere you like and zero instructors.
The S2000 driver for me is at fault.
03-30-2007, 07:37 PM
#27
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Poor anticipation from the S2k driver IMHO. Not totally his fault but following the speed and angle of the Porsche it was pretty clear he would have to come back toward the center of the track. I think the Honda had already slowed enough that he could have steered more to the right and avoided it. At the very least he could have braked and missed him as well.
Porsche driver clearly ran out of skill himself.
Avoiding this accident really isn't much different from steering clear of the daily grind on our local highways here in Atl. You have to expect the unexpected.
Porsche driver clearly ran out of skill himself.
Avoiding this accident really isn't much different from steering clear of the daily grind on our local highways here in Atl. You have to expect the unexpected.
