Patrick Long Advanced DE day at MSR
03-29-2007, 08:23 PM
#91
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Originally Posted by jakermc
Glen deserves as much praise as Patrick. He is also fantastic at communicating what the car is doing into understandable and actionable suggestions. I knew my car would oversteer at the limit but never quite understood why or what to do about it. Thanks to Glen, I do now. And thanks to Patrick I understand what is happening with my brakes a lot better. It was a great 1-2 punch to have them both take the car out.
Allow me to add my voice to this chorus. Glen and his better half did an AWESOME job putting this session together. And Glen is the consummate "nice guy". He is passionate about his efforts, and very focused on results. I can say that every time, including the very first time we met, he has been very friendly and personable. Fortunately, every person I have met in Barry's "Playhouse" (thank God Barry's nickname is not PeeWee!
) has been an absolute gem. All helpful and personable! My hat's off to all you guys. And especially to Glen, Melissa and Patrick this week.
Toby
03-29-2007, 09:30 PM
#94
I'm a Club Racer now for 14 years, and an advanced instructor for the Maverick Region, so this is a track where I have run probably 1,500 to 2,000 laps.
I have a 92 911 Turbo C class race car, and asked Patrick to drive me around in it. He asked to take a few laps in it alone to get familiar with it before I got in. He inquired about the shift points. After 4 or so laps, he came in and I hopped in. While I was belting in, he asked me what gears I had been using in the slower turns.
Off we went, and in the first two timed laps with me in the car, he was already going as fast as my prior best lap there (1:22.3, set in qualifying in a BMWCCA race last April. Now I was kinda proud of the 22.3 last year, but Jim Buckley (one of my two main mentors) holds the C class record of 1:20.8, so my personal best was fast but not near the class record.)
After starting the 3rd lap, we heard a tranny noise, so limped in. Sounded like a slipping clutch to me, and he thought so too. There was a lot more time in the car as he was short-shifting and running too high a gear quite a bit of the time. But he was learning the car quickly, and adapting on the 3 laps while I was riding with him.
As we debriefed afterward, he said it had really been fun, as he had only driven a couple of air-cooled 911's and never an air-cooled turbo. I asked him about what he noticed on handling and he gave me some very specific feedback. I adjusted my shocks based on his ideas, and voila, the car felt better.
Bottom line, I think Patrick Long is perfectly capable of learning an older turbo car sufficiently to teach me some things. Probably could help you, too.
PS. Anecdote of a similar nature. A few years ago, I was instructing at Texas World Speedway in College Station, TX. I was asked to ride with a guy who had a souped up turbocharged VW Golf. I rode with him and was trying to talk him through some changes while on the track, but he wasn't getting it. I suggested that at the end of his session, we go back to grid and swap seats, so I could demonstrate what I'd been trying to tell him.
When we were swapping seats and getting belted in, the rest of the Red Group was going out, so I knew our time on track would just be a couple of laps before we started getting lapped. I looked at his shifter and commented, "Five Speed" and noted where reverse was.
He looked at me with panic-stricken eyes and in a desparate tone of voice, asked "Have you ever driven one of these before?"
I said, "Nope" and just as I answered, the starter motioned us so I headed out on the track. Took him on about 3 laps at increasing speed until the red group started catching up with us, and then went in. He improved dramatically after that, but he clearly had been worried that I might be incapable of teaching him anything if I hadn't previously driven a turbocharged Golf.
Epilogue: About a year later I overheard him relating that outing to another student as a wild ride by a crazy instructor. He didn't recognize me when he was retelling this story. I never took him over about 8/10ths, but that was probably about 15 of his 10ths, though.
Lee Wilkins
I have a 92 911 Turbo C class race car, and asked Patrick to drive me around in it. He asked to take a few laps in it alone to get familiar with it before I got in. He inquired about the shift points. After 4 or so laps, he came in and I hopped in. While I was belting in, he asked me what gears I had been using in the slower turns.
Off we went, and in the first two timed laps with me in the car, he was already going as fast as my prior best lap there (1:22.3, set in qualifying in a BMWCCA race last April. Now I was kinda proud of the 22.3 last year, but Jim Buckley (one of my two main mentors) holds the C class record of 1:20.8, so my personal best was fast but not near the class record.)
After starting the 3rd lap, we heard a tranny noise, so limped in. Sounded like a slipping clutch to me, and he thought so too. There was a lot more time in the car as he was short-shifting and running too high a gear quite a bit of the time. But he was learning the car quickly, and adapting on the 3 laps while I was riding with him.
As we debriefed afterward, he said it had really been fun, as he had only driven a couple of air-cooled 911's and never an air-cooled turbo. I asked him about what he noticed on handling and he gave me some very specific feedback. I adjusted my shocks based on his ideas, and voila, the car felt better.
Bottom line, I think Patrick Long is perfectly capable of learning an older turbo car sufficiently to teach me some things. Probably could help you, too.
PS. Anecdote of a similar nature. A few years ago, I was instructing at Texas World Speedway in College Station, TX. I was asked to ride with a guy who had a souped up turbocharged VW Golf. I rode with him and was trying to talk him through some changes while on the track, but he wasn't getting it. I suggested that at the end of his session, we go back to grid and swap seats, so I could demonstrate what I'd been trying to tell him.
When we were swapping seats and getting belted in, the rest of the Red Group was going out, so I knew our time on track would just be a couple of laps before we started getting lapped. I looked at his shifter and commented, "Five Speed" and noted where reverse was.
He looked at me with panic-stricken eyes and in a desparate tone of voice, asked "Have you ever driven one of these before?"
I said, "Nope" and just as I answered, the starter motioned us so I headed out on the track. Took him on about 3 laps at increasing speed until the red group started catching up with us, and then went in. He improved dramatically after that, but he clearly had been worried that I might be incapable of teaching him anything if I hadn't previously driven a turbocharged Golf.
Epilogue: About a year later I overheard him relating that outing to another student as a wild ride by a crazy instructor. He didn't recognize me when he was retelling this story. I never took him over about 8/10ths, but that was probably about 15 of his 10ths, though.
Lee Wilkins
Originally Posted by BrianKeithSmith
Thanks for the responses. Like I said PL is a great driver (didn't he finish 2nd when doing the tryouts for the Red Bull F1 team, and decided he didn't want to be a test driver???? - Scott Speed won out - probably just because of his cool sounding name).
Anyway, the boy can obvously drive. No question there. As I said, my concern involved how quickly he could adjust his style to the nuances of the older car (especially a turbo), well enough and quickly enough to give good feedback - and it sounds like he did the job well.
Thanks again,
Brian
Anyway, the boy can obvously drive. No question there. As I said, my concern involved how quickly he could adjust his style to the nuances of the older car (especially a turbo), well enough and quickly enough to give good feedback - and it sounds like he did the job well.
Thanks again,
Brian
03-29-2007, 10:12 PM
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That's a good story...
Sounds like when I'm ready that PL will be a good option!
Now where is that bundle of cash that I had laying around - oh forgot I'm married - I have NO CASH!
Sounds like when I'm ready that PL will be a good option!
Now where is that bundle of cash that I had laying around - oh forgot I'm married - I have NO CASH!
03-30-2007, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by lwilkins
I'm a Club Racer now for 14 years, and an advanced instructor for the Maverick Region, so this is a track where I have run probably 1,500 to 2,000 laps.
I have a 92 911 Turbo C class race car, and asked Patrick to drive me around in it. He asked to take a few laps in it alone to get familiar with it before I got in. He inquired about the shift points. After 4 or so laps, he came in and I hopped in. While I was belting in, he asked me what gears I had been using in the slower turns.
Off we went, and in the first two timed laps with me in the car, he was already going as fast as my prior best lap there (1:22.3, set in qualifying in a BMWCCA race last April. Now I was kinda proud of the 22.3 last year, but Jim Buckley (one of my two main mentors) holds the C class record of 1:20.8, so my personal best was fast but not near the class record.)
snip......
Bottom line, I think Patrick Long is perfectly capable of learning an older turbo car sufficiently to teach me some things. Probably could help you, too.
snip....
Lee Wilkins
I have a 92 911 Turbo C class race car, and asked Patrick to drive me around in it. He asked to take a few laps in it alone to get familiar with it before I got in. He inquired about the shift points. After 4 or so laps, he came in and I hopped in. While I was belting in, he asked me what gears I had been using in the slower turns.
Off we went, and in the first two timed laps with me in the car, he was already going as fast as my prior best lap there (1:22.3, set in qualifying in a BMWCCA race last April. Now I was kinda proud of the 22.3 last year, but Jim Buckley (one of my two main mentors) holds the C class record of 1:20.8, so my personal best was fast but not near the class record.)
snip......
Bottom line, I think Patrick Long is perfectly capable of learning an older turbo car sufficiently to teach me some things. Probably could help you, too.
snip....
Lee Wilkins
You have a data logger, so by now you've been going over his laps against yours, so you know where he's faster and why or how, but was any of that obvious when you were riding with him, or was it just a cumulative set of small differences that really only come out when you look at sector times?
I know that as a racer, you probably don't want to share too many specifics and that's OK.
Michael
03-31-2007, 10:31 AM
#98
Not meaning to fail to answer your questions, but for some reason Rennlist forums seems to have been down since late yesterday afternoon.
Mostly, I observed a lot of slight differences in his approach, which overall added up to faster laps.
I hadn't had the chance to look at the data until last night, although I'd really been wanting to. It confirmed my butt-o-meter and observations.
Some of Patrick's advantage is the usual suspects, staying on the gas longer, and getting back on it earlier. He carried a bit more entry speed into turns, which will take a bit of getting used to, as I'm already at the limit of my comfort. I'll have to go back to the data traces to assure myself on this, and then just gut up and do it next time.
I have to say the data trace difference on speed is subtle, as he wasn't yet up to speed in my car when we had the mechanical issue with the clutch.
After we came in and the clutch cooled, I was able to go back out and run several more sessions during the rest of the day, and got some good help from Bryan Henderson and Glen Gatlin, both of whom rode with me and offered concrete suggestions. Most of their suggestions were very slight modifications to my line that allowed me to get back on power earlier, and/or encouraging me to get back on power earlier, so were very astute.
The cumulative effect of riding with Patrick in my own car, then trying Glen's and Bryan's suggestions, was that I ran probably 20 laps faster than my prior best single lap. I ran 6 laps in the last session in the 21's, the best being a 21.5. Jim Buckley still holds the C class record on the MSR 1.7 (with a 1:20.8), but now I'm not so far off his pace.
This Patrick Long day was one of the best driving enhancement days I can recall. Thanks to Glen and Melissa and Patrick for setting it up. Thanks also to Bryan and Glen for their suggestions. I didn't get to have Dave Scott ride with me but I'm sure that would have helped, too.
One of the neat things about this sport, is how one can continue to improve, even after doing it for awhile. Expert coaching certainly increases the chances for improvement.
Mostly, I observed a lot of slight differences in his approach, which overall added up to faster laps.
I hadn't had the chance to look at the data until last night, although I'd really been wanting to. It confirmed my butt-o-meter and observations.
Some of Patrick's advantage is the usual suspects, staying on the gas longer, and getting back on it earlier. He carried a bit more entry speed into turns, which will take a bit of getting used to, as I'm already at the limit of my comfort. I'll have to go back to the data traces to assure myself on this, and then just gut up and do it next time.
I have to say the data trace difference on speed is subtle, as he wasn't yet up to speed in my car when we had the mechanical issue with the clutch.
After we came in and the clutch cooled, I was able to go back out and run several more sessions during the rest of the day, and got some good help from Bryan Henderson and Glen Gatlin, both of whom rode with me and offered concrete suggestions. Most of their suggestions were very slight modifications to my line that allowed me to get back on power earlier, and/or encouraging me to get back on power earlier, so were very astute.
The cumulative effect of riding with Patrick in my own car, then trying Glen's and Bryan's suggestions, was that I ran probably 20 laps faster than my prior best single lap. I ran 6 laps in the last session in the 21's, the best being a 21.5. Jim Buckley still holds the C class record on the MSR 1.7 (with a 1:20.8), but now I'm not so far off his pace.
This Patrick Long day was one of the best driving enhancement days I can recall. Thanks to Glen and Melissa and Patrick for setting it up. Thanks also to Bryan and Glen for their suggestions. I didn't get to have Dave Scott ride with me but I'm sure that would have helped, too.
One of the neat things about this sport, is how one can continue to improve, even after doing it for awhile. Expert coaching certainly increases the chances for improvement.
Originally Posted by mpaton
So would you care to share what he taught you? You didn't get to drive with him riding, and we accept that as a pro driver he's likely to be faster than you/us and he gave you a demonstration of that. However was he able to verbally tell you what you should be doing in a way that you could relate to what you usually do, or were you able to tell yourself from riding along that he took different lines, got on the power earlier, handled the car better, had shorter braking zones, had more confidence in the car or what.
You have a data logger, so by now you've been going over his laps against yours, so you know where he's faster and why or how, but was any of that obvious when you were riding with him, or was it just a cumulative set of small differences that really only come out when you look at sector times?
I know that as a racer, you probably don't want to share too many specifics and that's OK.
Michael
You have a data logger, so by now you've been going over his laps against yours, so you know where he's faster and why or how, but was any of that obvious when you were riding with him, or was it just a cumulative set of small differences that really only come out when you look at sector times?
I know that as a racer, you probably don't want to share too many specifics and that's OK.
Michael
03-31-2007, 09:06 PM
#101
Burning Brakes
Lee, 21.5 is indeed serious quick. Congratulations on that. I missed this time, but really enjoyed the day in Nov. that Glen arranged. My thoughts then were similar to yours now. Watching the subtle (and some not so subtle) differences of Patirick's drive in my car was very helpful, and having Glen and Buckley ride with me and give good solid advice helped me quite a bit.
I had not been able to get back out on the track since that Nov. day until a couple weeks ago (sad, I know), but even after all that time just thinking about the suggestions that were made, I was able to go out and put together a string of laps all day long a full second off my previous best single lap, bringing my street heavy C4S around the 1.7 in the 1:24s. I am going to do everything I can to make the next one, as I am convinced of the benefit.
Again, 1:21.5..... smokin is right!!
I had not been able to get back out on the track since that Nov. day until a couple weeks ago (sad, I know), but even after all that time just thinking about the suggestions that were made, I was able to go out and put together a string of laps all day long a full second off my previous best single lap, bringing my street heavy C4S around the 1.7 in the 1:24s. I am going to do everything I can to make the next one, as I am convinced of the benefit.
Again, 1:21.5..... smokin is right!!
