F1 Ferrari accused of cheating
03-23-2007, 11:06 AM
#106
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Originally Posted by A.Wayne
I not aware of any other F1 turbo car Geo, supercharged Yes , but not turbo in F1 ...
For example, McLaren had our belowed Porsche turbo engine...
Honda did turbos...
03-23-2007, 11:15 AM
#107
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Originally Posted by Flying Finn
Lauda had Piquet (3 WDCs) and Prost (4 WDCs), Piquet had Mansel (WDC) , Mansel had Rosberg (WDC) , Rosberg had Prost (4 WDCs), Fittipaldi had Rosberg (WDC), Prost had Senna (3 WDCs), Senna had Prost (4 WDCs). So there's been lot of drivers with WDCs as their team mates.
Mansell also had Prost
Prost also had Hill
Senna also had Hill and Hakkinen
Hill even had both Prost and Senna
BTW, I think Hill is much maligned by F1 followers. I don't think he was a real firebrand, but he was no slouch either. Yes, he had the best car, but he was also rather green in F1. He was no slouch in F3000. He deserved his ride (unlike many on the grid) and came through in trying times. I think he deserves more credit than he gets. And don't forget, had Scummie not taken him out, Hill would be a 2x WC.
03-23-2007, 11:16 AM
#108
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Originally Posted by Flying Finn
Wayne, I must be missing something?
For example, McLaren had our belowed Porsche turbo engine...
Honda did turbos...
For example, McLaren had our belowed Porsche turbo engine...
Honda did turbos...
03-23-2007, 11:28 AM
#109
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Originally Posted by Flying Finn
I'm not kidding. Of course usually it is won with WC car but when you win it without, it shows even more talent. I can't remember them all, but here's few on top of my head (correct me if I forget someone):
Besides Schumi's one (out of 7), Hakkinen, Prost, Piquet (at least twice), Rosberg (Williams was 4th in that year!), Hunt etc. did it.
Then there's those who never won WDC but by watching them (for me, only on TV) and reading about them and comments by fellow drivers you can see how unbelievably talented they were, such names as Villeneuve (IMO the best ever) and Pironi are great examples of very talented drivers who never won WDC.
Lauda had Piquet (3 WDCs) and Prost (4 WDCs), Piquet had Mansel (WDC) , Mansel had Rosberg (WDC) , Rosberg had Prost (4 WDCs), Fittipaldi had Rosberg (WDC), Prost had Senna (3 WDCs), Senna had Prost (4 WDCs). So there's been lot of drivers with WDCs as their team mates. Schumi, never even someone who was a real talent except maybe J.J. but he was su beat up (from his neck injury) and got really bad treatment equipment wise from Benetton (as did all the other Schumi's team mates) that you can't really compare them.
Fangio and Schumi are similar in team mate treatment, Fangio really screwed his team mates (as you said, they had to switch cars etc.) and Schumi always had spare car set-up for him, got better parts, better car (in Benetton years, his car had a button in his steering wheel his team mate didn't (did I hear traction control?), had "team mate, mowe over-pass" etc. etc.
Besides Schumi's one (out of 7), Hakkinen, Prost, Piquet (at least twice), Rosberg (Williams was 4th in that year!), Hunt etc. did it.
Then there's those who never won WDC but by watching them (for me, only on TV) and reading about them and comments by fellow drivers you can see how unbelievably talented they were, such names as Villeneuve (IMO the best ever) and Pironi are great examples of very talented drivers who never won WDC.
Lauda had Piquet (3 WDCs) and Prost (4 WDCs), Piquet had Mansel (WDC) , Mansel had Rosberg (WDC) , Rosberg had Prost (4 WDCs), Fittipaldi had Rosberg (WDC), Prost had Senna (3 WDCs), Senna had Prost (4 WDCs). So there's been lot of drivers with WDCs as their team mates. Schumi, never even someone who was a real talent except maybe J.J. but he was su beat up (from his neck injury) and got really bad treatment equipment wise from Benetton (as did all the other Schumi's team mates) that you can't really compare them.
Fangio and Schumi are similar in team mate treatment, Fangio really screwed his team mates (as you said, they had to switch cars etc.) and Schumi always had spare car set-up for him, got better parts, better car (in Benetton years, his car had a button in his steering wheel his team mate didn't (did I hear traction control?), had "team mate, mowe over-pass" etc. etc.
Finn
Please fangio and scummie in the same sentence , fangio was a class act
Fangio did not do anything against the grain when in F1 , unlike M.S. who had to have had the most ocntroversial career ever..
The turbo reference is regarding renaults turbo entry which was years ahead of the ones you listed
Geo in agreement with the Hill reference , his victory in japan 94 in the rain beating Schumacher was a drive of brilliance, but remember he was lapped in Brazil as Senna's teammate in the only race that the great brazilian actually completed any decent laps in 94... yes the car was that bad, adrian newey went on to state on record that the 94 wiliams was the worst car he has ever designed and it was a mark of sennas brilliance why he was able to pullout 3 Pole positions from 3 starts wit hsuch a bad chassis
Schumacher fans please watch the 93 donington GP , for a master at work , the only person i'm aware of to completly lap an entire, F1 field .
03-23-2007, 01:23 PM
#110
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OK, got it, I knew Wayne was either smoking something not healthy or I didn't get it (maybe I was smoking...).
Sorry for putting Fangio and Schumi in a same sentence (but now you did it too and I again!).
Geo,
I quickly tried to make a list so lot of thigs are missing but of course, with your additions, those guys' team mates list is even more ipressive.
Oh yeah... It won't get much better than that! 
Although Gilles battling with Arnoux is even better.
(Jorg Bergmeister, please watch that clip).
Sorry for putting Fangio and Schumi in a same sentence (but now you did it too and I again!).
Geo,
I quickly tried to make a list so lot of thigs are missing but of course, with your additions, those guys' team mates list is even more ipressive.
Originally Posted by A.Wayne
...Schumacher fans please watch the 93 donington GP , for a master at work , the only person i'm aware of to completly lap an entire, F1 field .
Although Gilles battling with Arnoux is even better. (Jorg Bergmeister, please watch that clip).
03-23-2007, 02:01 PM
#111
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Originally Posted by A.Wayne
Everything i have said here is documented facts , if you do not know the sport or you are recent to it , do the research ! or i can provide documentation details for the research , responding with " nonsense" etc, etc, without proper rebuttal will only establish ignorance .
. AFAIK Ferrari getting turbo banned is an over-simplification. There were other issues, and in It did more for others than it did for Ferrari. (If you suck, you will keep sucking) Cosworth on the other hand was happy.
I’m not sure I understand 1994 with Ferrari and Schumacher.
Ferrari traction control system I recall wasn’t a flagrant issue. The system worked peculiarly, it was a sort of “traction control” in effect, but wasn’t properly traction control (engine related). Ferrari always denied it was illegal. This brought up the issue of how hard it was to legislate traction control in Formula 1 since nothing ever was technically proven (effectively impossible), finally traction control was re-legislated. (and Ferrari incidently wasn’t the only team to have a smooth transition in the new TC era... was their engine wizardry just better than the rest?).
active suspensions, tyres, dampers, flexi wings... how about a ban because they break the rules? Why always on to Ferrari/FIA conspiracy? That is the nonesense. Skew it enough, and you can make it so it's always Ferrari's fault (ex: mass damper). I've been hearing that FIA is destroying the sport for a long time now, and the sport is still there.
Your problem, to me, is the little objectivity. F1 is political as much as it is technical. Going from living memory, it goes back as far as I can remember. Drivers, Teams, and ruling body have had their agendas and influenced the sport (for better or worse) at given times. It seems to me utter dominance is fine to you, as long as it’s not Ferrari. Being what it is, some teams/drivers have more “power” than others, everyone knows it. Is this fair? Yes, no, depends… again essence of F1. I don’t think it is absolutely detrimental
Last edited by Nano; 03-23-2007 at 04:42 PM.
03-23-2007, 07:16 PM
#113
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Originally Posted by Nano
1982 I was 6 years old. I do remember Gilles Villeneuve very well, and I think it’s one of the reason why I never was able to bring myself to hate Ferrari. PM me the title of the books/details, they certainly are not unwelcome .
AFAIK Ferrari getting turbo banned is an over-simplification. There were other issues, and in It did more for others than it did for Ferrari. (If you suck, you will keep sucking) Cosworth on the other hand was happy.
I’m not sure I understand 1994 with Ferrari and Schumacher.
Ferrari traction control system I recall wasn’t a flagrant issue. The system worked peculiarly, it was a sort of “traction control” in effect, but wasn’t properly traction control (engine related). Ferrari always denied it was illegal. This brought up the issue of how hard it was to legislate traction control in Formula 1 since nothing ever was technically proven (effectively impossible), finally traction control was re-legislated. (and Ferrari incidently wasn’t the only team to have a smooth transition in the new TC era... was their engine wizardry just better than the rest?).
active suspensions, tyres, dampers, flexi wings... how about a ban because they break the rules? Why always on to Ferrari/FIA conspiracy? That is the nonesense. Skew it enough, and you can make it so it's always Ferrari's fault (ex: mass damper). I've been hearing that FIA is destroying the sport for a long time now, and the sport is still there.
Your problem, to me, is the little objectivity. F1 is political as much as it is technical. Going from living memory, it goes back as far as I can remember. Drivers, Teams, and ruling body have had their agendas and influenced the sport (for better or worse) at given times. It seems to me utter dominance is fine to you, as long as it’s not Ferrari. Being what it is, some teams/drivers have more “power” than others, everyone knows it. Is this fair? Yes, no, depends… again essence of F1. I don’t think it is absolutely detrimental
. AFAIK Ferrari getting turbo banned is an over-simplification. There were other issues, and in It did more for others than it did for Ferrari. (If you suck, you will keep sucking) Cosworth on the other hand was happy.
I’m not sure I understand 1994 with Ferrari and Schumacher.
Ferrari traction control system I recall wasn’t a flagrant issue. The system worked peculiarly, it was a sort of “traction control” in effect, but wasn’t properly traction control (engine related). Ferrari always denied it was illegal. This brought up the issue of how hard it was to legislate traction control in Formula 1 since nothing ever was technically proven (effectively impossible), finally traction control was re-legislated. (and Ferrari incidently wasn’t the only team to have a smooth transition in the new TC era... was their engine wizardry just better than the rest?).
active suspensions, tyres, dampers, flexi wings... how about a ban because they break the rules? Why always on to Ferrari/FIA conspiracy? That is the nonesense. Skew it enough, and you can make it so it's always Ferrari's fault (ex: mass damper). I've been hearing that FIA is destroying the sport for a long time now, and the sport is still there.
Your problem, to me, is the little objectivity. F1 is political as much as it is technical. Going from living memory, it goes back as far as I can remember. Drivers, Teams, and ruling body have had their agendas and influenced the sport (for better or worse) at given times. It seems to me utter dominance is fine to you, as long as it’s not Ferrari. Being what it is, some teams/drivers have more “power” than others, everyone knows it. Is this fair? Yes, no, depends… again essence of F1. I don’t think it is absolutely detrimental
Racing is about technical Cheating , get it ! always has been that way.
I'm not upset that ferrari cheated , I'm upset when they cannot cheat as good as the next guy then brummy whine about it , in order to get it banned.Ron's whinging is recent as before it was may the best man win , ron is taking a page from ferrari's book ...
03-23-2007, 08:06 PM
#114
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Originally Posted by A.Wayne
Racing is about technical Cheating , get it ! always has been that way.
It's not new at all, but it's ok that ron whines about it now? And it's even Ferrari's fault because he whines, right? That's objective!
I NEVER called you a Ferrari hater, I called you an F1 hater
I know you defended Melo, what does it have to do with this? A lot of stuff you said in this thread sounds pretty biased to me.
Last edited by Nano; 03-23-2007 at 09:05 PM.
03-23-2007, 10:35 PM
#115
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[QUOTE=Nano]Ehm, maybe I haven't been clear, that's what I have been saying all along, from my first post. You called it semantics. But by calling it cheating, you fail in defining the spirit of the technical competition. I believe racing is not about cheating, it is about stretching the rules as far as you can, AND not cheating.
It's not new at all, but it's ok that ron whines about it now? And it's even Ferrari's fault because he whines, right? That's objective!
I NEVER called you a Ferrari hater, I called you an F1 hater
I know you defended Melo, what does it have to do with this? A lot of stuff you said in this thread sounds pretty biased to me.[/QUOTE
______________________________________________________________
Next time i will try to be as knowledgeable and as objective as you
As your supreme knowledge of the sport of F1 is riveting.
scottie Beam me up
Fasssssssssssst
It's not new at all, but it's ok that ron whines about it now? And it's even Ferrari's fault because he whines, right? That's objective!
I NEVER called you a Ferrari hater, I called you an F1 hater
I know you defended Melo, what does it have to do with this? A lot of stuff you said in this thread sounds pretty biased to me.[/QUOTE
______________________________________________________________
Next time i will try to be as knowledgeable and as objective as you
As your supreme knowledge of the sport of F1 is riveting.
scottie Beam me up
Fasssssssssssst
03-23-2007, 11:22 PM
#116
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Originally Posted by A.Wayne
scottie Beam me up Fasssssssssssst
Fasssssssssssst
03-25-2007, 11:35 PM
#118
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Originally Posted by Flying Finn
Just give min. weight, max engine size (and general size etc. rules) and let them figure out how to make it faster.
+1. Exactly. And may the best engineers, pit crew and driver win.
