Bull

I wasn't there, but were there really a lot of "bone stock" 914s, 912s and 924s in attendance?

Sean F

Taken a step further, I think the record for a G car like mine (170 hp) is around 2:15 (although the G cars that get close to that time aren't very stock even if they claim to be ).

Larry Herman

None that I saw.

Brian P

Umm... I think when you and Charlie were running Boxster S's in stock form with street tires, you were doing somewhere around 2:24's. I don't know if the extra 50 HP would bring times down to a 2:20 flat. However, I think you guys would not be the typical white (or even black) run group drivers.

Also, even doing those 2:24 type times, I bet you would have run in cups and have done so without being a nuisance to the other cup drivers.

bobt993

Answer is no. I had a mechanical on the first day and only saw two runs as the track was still drying out. My DAS recorded 2:14s on old MPSC's. I think day two was pretty optimal for much lower times.

Colin there were a couple of well driven lower horsepower cars, but they were great with their mirrors. The high horsepower cars usually would lift for me even on the front/back straights. There was one silver Boxster in Saucers when I was a passenger that had no idea what a mirror was. I understand a few drovers had a talk with him.

Jewels

I have waited to most of the comments were in before posting..so now seems like as good a time as ever.
First I would like to thank all my fellow organizers in both clubs for all there help and time.
Second I would thank all those participants of this years Cups and Saucers event for making it one of the best attended one since we started this type of event at WG seven years ago.
Now after reading everyone's comments and being the ONE REASPONSIBLE for renting the track, I have a few comments of my own.
This is an ever changing and constant fine tuning exercise in advanced DE. As such we will have to meet with our trusty advisors to see what next year will bring.
My biggest problem with some participants is that they feel that the DE rules are for everyone else and not for themselves.
At the morning drivers meeting on the first day we go over all aspects of DEing and hope that everyone has asorbed the fine points. Then by 9am the reports on those that have obviously not heard a word at the drivers meeting start to come in. Is it frustrating, what do you think?
This is not a tune up for the Clash Larry..go to Mid -Ohio. This IS an advanced DE for those that have atleast 5 days in white on up, to hone there skills, safely and within the rules laid out for DE by PCA.
We try to sepeate 2 groups so that everyone has some place to run in a comfort level that is acceptable to them. If anyone one belives that either group is too slow or too fast, they might think about doing a different vane next year.
Aftera full day of listening to my fellow PCA'ers comments, the next day we have another drivers meeting and go over all the fine points(for those that are respectful enough to attend)and try to deal with all of the larger problems that cropped up the day before. For the MAJORITY of our fellow DE'ers, they do a GREAT job of listening and adjusting. There are always some that either never heard what we were talking about or just ignored the discussion at the meeting and did as they pleased. I am well aware that this happens in most DE"s...but we are supposed to be the cream of the DE people, the most talented ones. With that goes the responsibility of doing the safe and smart things on the track...this is where a few of our entrants are having a problem.
As I said before "This is a constant fine tuning excercise" and being that, we WELCOME all coments(we actually solicit them).
So please continue to write your comments or e-mail myself or others if you prefer, so that this process will be ever evolving within the PCA DE rules. It is up to all of you to make this the BEST DE event there is.
Thanks to everyone for there support and attendence.
Marty
Pres. & Track Chair
HCR/PCA
And Proud of It

38D

2:15.582 is the G record.

The top drivers get their cars checked all the time, so there is far less cheating at the front than mid/back pack IMO. Now they absolutely do prep their cars to the limits of the rules. But if you're more than 2 secs off the pace, it's talent not car.


Those 2:24s were at a TracQuest event where, quite frankly, the overall speed level was pretty **** poor. That was also 4 or 5 years ago before we got faster by racing. I think it does depend on the cars/entrants. I would not want to be running 2:24s in a group with a bunch of GTC3/GTA type cars doing 2-2:05. Too much speed delta IMO.

Brian P

I think the pre-event guidelines described really well how the event should be run and people were expected to self-police themselves. My feeling was that those in the red run group, racers, and cup drivers should run in cups. Everybody else should be in saucers. If you were planning to deviate from that, then if you were a cup guy in the saucers group, you were expected to be very courteous. If you were a saucers guy running in cups, you were expected to be glued to your mirrors.

I think by and large almost everybody actually obeyed those rules. Unfortunately, there were a couple of bad apples who did not. Either there were extremely aggressive drivers in the saucers group or extremely inattentive drivers in the cups group. And, as with the saying about bad apples, it doesn't take much to spoil the entire group. (to be clear, out of about 150 registered attendees, I can only think of 3 such examples)

Again, the pre-event literature clearly explained the behavior expected of each group. Looking back, probably the biggest problem was that nobody reported the offenders that were misbehaving. The guidelines set out before the event clearly explained that these offenders would be either restricted to one group or asked to leave the event. Maybe people should have complained at the event rather than doing it here?

38D

Like I said, I had zero issue last year at this event, and I wasn't even there this year. Last year I only saw a few drivers that just didn't belong, which seems in line with what Brian is saying about this year's event. Didn't really cause much issue last year.

Brian P

If I had to guess, it was due to the timing of the weather. I think you had lousy weather at the end of the event last year and we had lousy weather at the beginning this year. A lot of people were trying to make up for lost time and they may have made some questionable decisions about the appropriate group to run in.

Larry Herman

Well...since you have seen reason to single me out, I feel obliged to respond. So that you know who I am, I have been track driving and time trialing since 1983, instructing since 1985 and racing since 1995. I think that I know a thing or 2 about DEs. I will also have you know that I did not create any problems at your event (to my knowledge), did not hound cars waiting to pass nor did I ever pass anyone without a signal. 27 years of experience gives one patience if nothing else.

I did not criticize your event, or the way you ran it, though there certainly was room for improvement. What I found was that it was not an appropriate venue for top drivers and racers to improve their skills or their cars. There was too much unskilled traffic in the cup group during most of the event. This typically does not occur in the Red run groups in regular DEs. I was excited to have the large amount of track time so that I could work on lines and make adjustments to the car (test and tune, as you unapprovingly refer to it) only to find it difficult to get into any rhythm due to all of the roadblocks.

So if you want constructive criticism here it is...keep the cups and saucers groups split, and allow only instructors and racers in cups. There is no reason to mix the groups, and the white drivers will get plenty of experience running with the black drivers. Otherwise, this really isn't a proper event for people like myself, and I would most likely heed your admonishment to go to Mid Ohio next year. At least I know what I will be able to do with the slower cars there.

RonCT

Thanks again to Marty and the other organizers for their dedication to our club and to their patience for running events like Cups & Saucers. Remember everyone, they aren't doing it for the pay

I do have another idea - if you have the ability, send out a few random "inspectors" to run shotgun in both groups next year and between them and flaggers you may quickly see who is in the wrong group or is not following established DE rules (safety first). I know many people were coming to you, Lou, and others during the day to air concerns - so perhaps the inspector concept is not needed - just trying to think of anything I can to help make the event smoother next year. Once we have one of these events and there are no complaints or concerns, then we know we have found the perfect recipe.

Jewels

Larry...It's interesting that you find it necessary to tell me your backround on track driving to validate your comments(I started at 12 in Go Karts, 18 SCCA Racing, National Motorcycle instructor since 83.Ect.) Is that making you feel better.
I do not think that your views or anyone else's who was there, has any less validity than a driver that has been DE'ing for 2 years. I think you miss my point.
This is not supposed to be a test and tune for the Clash or any other RACING vane. It is supposed to be a Advanced DE and ALOT of track time, without the normal obligations that instructors like ourselves have to deal with.
I think that your last paragraph of your comments is the constructive feedback that I am looking for and personally I totally agree with your thoughts in that area. Did you ever try to get 120 drivers to follow those exact rules as you suggest? Easier said than done.
You have over reacted to my taking your comments about the Clash out of context..so be it.
It is my thinking that maybe we should only allow non streetable cars (no license or Reg.) to run in Cups only??? Like I said it is a work in progress.
I can assure you that my comments were not "meant to single you out" just to address your thought that you did not get that test and tune for the clash you were hoping for.
Either way,I do appreciate your suggestions.
Marty

Jewels

Ron..Thanks for your support and ideas..all will be considered.
Marty

Larry Herman

Marty, I only mention my experience as a way of showing that I have a lot of experience in all venues. It only goes to explain my viewpoint in context, not to add creedence to it.

Frankly I do not understand your bug about "test and tune". If I am trying to improve my driving that is ok, but if I am trying to improve my car, that is verbotten?

Personally, I feel that the split in the classes should be made, as I feel it is much safer when running in the Red group with experienced drivers. There is no benefit that I can get running with the lower classes for an entire event. In our region, we have combined groups at the end of an event for their education, and it works out fine, but only for a session or 2, not for the whole event.

That is my only criticism, albiet a big one, and otherwise I had a very good time.