HVR / HCP Advanced DE May 16/17
05-18-2007, 04:02 PM
#166
Rennlist Member
What a great event! It's my third time, and I'll be back next year, if the car holds out. Many thanks to the organizers, and all those who made it great. And, special thanks to Rick Betterley, who was generous enough, and a talented enough instructor to come out with me and help me start to get past a block that was really bugging me.
There has been a little discussion already about the mixture of cups and saucers, and there was a fair amount of discussion in the garage about the cups running in the saucers group. I am a devout saucer, and find there are pro's and con's to the current arrangement, but on balance I would like to come out on the side of more segregation of the two groups.
It's fun to have a variety of cars and speeds on the track. It was pretty common for a flock of cups running together to pass as a group, whether all had been given permission or not. Usually, I didn't mind...I had come to expect it, and it spices things up to have to be aware, and to find a different line through a corner, as this often resulted in pretty late passing. I found it commonplace enough, though, that it was hard to get a rhythm going at my substantially slower pace. Moreover, if I had found someone roughly my pace to follow or who might be following me (I always enjoy this), it tended to bust things up, and we would lose each other in traffic.
So, FWIW, my suggestion: segregated groups, self-assignment at the time of registration, with the organizers and participants having the option to reassign at the event.
See ya next year
Bill
There has been a little discussion already about the mixture of cups and saucers, and there was a fair amount of discussion in the garage about the cups running in the saucers group. I am a devout saucer, and find there are pro's and con's to the current arrangement, but on balance I would like to come out on the side of more segregation of the two groups.
It's fun to have a variety of cars and speeds on the track. It was pretty common for a flock of cups running together to pass as a group, whether all had been given permission or not. Usually, I didn't mind...I had come to expect it, and it spices things up to have to be aware, and to find a different line through a corner, as this often resulted in pretty late passing. I found it commonplace enough, though, that it was hard to get a rhythm going at my substantially slower pace. Moreover, if I had found someone roughly my pace to follow or who might be following me (I always enjoy this), it tended to bust things up, and we would lose each other in traffic.
So, FWIW, my suggestion: segregated groups, self-assignment at the time of registration, with the organizers and participants having the option to reassign at the event.
See ya next year
Bill
05-18-2007, 04:03 PM
#167
Rennlist Member
05-18-2007, 04:52 PM
#168
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Bill N
What a great event! It's my third time, and I'll be back next year, if the car holds out. Many thanks to the organizers, and all those who made it great. And, special thanks to Rick Betterley, who was generous enough, and a talented enough instructor to come out with me and help me start to get past a block that was really bugging me.
There has been a little discussion already about the mixture of cups and saucers, and there was a fair amount of discussion in the garage about the cups running in the saucers group. I am a devout saucer, and find there are pro's and con's to the current arrangement, but on balance I would like to come out on the side of more segregation of the two groups.
It's fun to have a variety of cars and speeds on the track. It was pretty common for a flock of cups running together to pass as a group, whether all had been given permission or not. Usually, I didn't mind...I had come to expect it, and it spices things up to have to be aware, and to find a different line through a corner, as this often resulted in pretty late passing. I found it commonplace enough, though, that it was hard to get a rhythm going at my substantially slower pace. Moreover, if I had found someone roughly my pace to follow or who might be following me (I always enjoy this), it tended to bust things up, and we would lose each other in traffic.
So, FWIW, my suggestion: segregated groups, self-assignment at the time of registration, with the organizers and participants having the option to reassign at the event.
See ya next year
Bill
There has been a little discussion already about the mixture of cups and saucers, and there was a fair amount of discussion in the garage about the cups running in the saucers group. I am a devout saucer, and find there are pro's and con's to the current arrangement, but on balance I would like to come out on the side of more segregation of the two groups.
It's fun to have a variety of cars and speeds on the track. It was pretty common for a flock of cups running together to pass as a group, whether all had been given permission or not. Usually, I didn't mind...I had come to expect it, and it spices things up to have to be aware, and to find a different line through a corner, as this often resulted in pretty late passing. I found it commonplace enough, though, that it was hard to get a rhythm going at my substantially slower pace. Moreover, if I had found someone roughly my pace to follow or who might be following me (I always enjoy this), it tended to bust things up, and we would lose each other in traffic.
So, FWIW, my suggestion: segregated groups, self-assignment at the time of registration, with the organizers and participants having the option to reassign at the event.
See ya next year
Bill
With slightly relaxed passing rules in cups.
Last edited by fstockcarrera; 05-18-2007 at 05:20 PM.
05-18-2007, 05:03 PM
#169
NASA Racer
Rennlist Member
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I think if there hadn't been so many problems on day 1 they wouldn't have been as harsh yesterday. I watched a car pass three cars without a signal (twice in turns) while running a black flag. I saw numerous passes in corners. It was not pretty on day 1.
05-18-2007, 05:29 PM
#170
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Originally Posted by 1957 356
I think if there hadn't been so many problems on day 1 they wouldn't have been as harsh yesterday. I watched a car pass three cars without a signal (twice in turns) while running a black flag. I saw numerous passes in corners. It was not pretty on day 1.
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
Last edited by Larry Herman; 05-18-2007 at 05:53 PM. Reason: content edited by request
05-18-2007, 05:46 PM
#171
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Please leave me out of this conversation. I don't think it does anyone any good to dwell on the negative aspects of the event. Not all of the facts are in, and I don't think the public forum is the best place to resolve this. Thanks.
05-18-2007, 05:50 PM
#172
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I do not know Geoffrey or the incident in question, so this is not meant to address that particular situation.
My observations were that, especially on day one when I think run groups were very crowded because of the rain shortened day, there was quite a bit of passing w/o signal. I personally witnessed passing in the esses w/o a signal. In truth this can happen in any DE not just this particular one. I think to pass w/o a singnal when the rules are so clearly laid out is completley disrespectful to other drivers and to event organisers that put there time and, probably to some extent..their asses on the line.
On the other hand...this is billed as 'advanced DE'. Without being disrespectful for anyone here or at the event, a white driver is not 'advanced'. It is not about HP it is about track awarness at this point. I believe it is widely accepted that white is the diciest of run groups in that you have drivers just out of green/blue and drivers ready for black. I, myself, could not wait to get out of white. I remember beign at the Glen in white and having drivers actually braking in the esses...not in TT's but sub 250hp cars.
I don't think it is really until you get to black and red that you get/give late passes consistently and know how to anticipate faster, closing drivers and how to get them by w/o impeading their or your momentum. For example I had numerous situations where I was folloiwng, albiet closely, through the outer loop and still no point by on the short straight before the left into the laces. Further I would say that if you are not comforatable giving/taking a pass in the outer loop than you are probably not ready for 'advanced DE'.
I think it really boils down to my thinking that white drivers are not ready to run with black and red drivers and that if white dirvers are allowed in such an event that they should probabley be restricted to saucers . Further, if it remains that white drivers are welcome in this type of DE, cup drivers should just deal with it when running in saucers and realise that they are, in effect, back in white.......for 25 minutes at least.
Just my 2 cents FWIW.
Jamie
My observations were that, especially on day one when I think run groups were very crowded because of the rain shortened day, there was quite a bit of passing w/o signal. I personally witnessed passing in the esses w/o a signal. In truth this can happen in any DE not just this particular one. I think to pass w/o a singnal when the rules are so clearly laid out is completley disrespectful to other drivers and to event organisers that put there time and, probably to some extent..their asses on the line.
On the other hand...this is billed as 'advanced DE'. Without being disrespectful for anyone here or at the event, a white driver is not 'advanced'. It is not about HP it is about track awarness at this point. I believe it is widely accepted that white is the diciest of run groups in that you have drivers just out of green/blue and drivers ready for black. I, myself, could not wait to get out of white. I remember beign at the Glen in white and having drivers actually braking in the esses...not in TT's but sub 250hp cars.
I don't think it is really until you get to black and red that you get/give late passes consistently and know how to anticipate faster, closing drivers and how to get them by w/o impeading their or your momentum. For example I had numerous situations where I was folloiwng, albiet closely, through the outer loop and still no point by on the short straight before the left into the laces. Further I would say that if you are not comforatable giving/taking a pass in the outer loop than you are probably not ready for 'advanced DE'.
I think it really boils down to my thinking that white drivers are not ready to run with black and red drivers and that if white dirvers are allowed in such an event that they should probabley be restricted to saucers . Further, if it remains that white drivers are welcome in this type of DE, cup drivers should just deal with it when running in saucers and realise that they are, in effect, back in white.......for 25 minutes at least.
Just my 2 cents FWIW.
Jamie
05-18-2007, 05:53 PM
#173
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By the way I had an absolute blast at the event! My favorite of the year.
Cheers,
Jamie
Cheers,
Jamie
05-18-2007, 06:06 PM
#174
Rennlist Member
Jamie - as you yourself stated White groups in general are comprised of a large variance in skill level. Add to that the fact that a White group in one region is not necessarily at the same level as another region's white. Maybe requiring a region's CI's endorsement for this particular event wouldn't be a bad idea.
I had a great time nonetheless and will be there again next year if all the stars are in alignment..
I had a great time nonetheless and will be there again next year if all the stars are in alignment..
05-18-2007, 06:09 PM
#175
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You sure have! 
Originally Posted by Phokaioglaukos
Have people sent applications to this already? I see on the web site that "Applications will not be accepted if postmarked prior to the date registration opens" and that date is next Monday, March 5. I planned to mail then. Have I screwed up already?
05-18-2007, 06:22 PM
#176
Rennlist Member
[QUOTE, cup drivers should just deal with it when running in saucers and realise that they are, in effect, back in white.......for 25 minutes at least.
Jamie[/QUOTE]
+1
I usually just went out in saucers to get heat in the tires as it was cold,
Jamie[/QUOTE]
+1
I usually just went out in saucers to get heat in the tires as it was cold,
05-18-2007, 08:17 PM
#177
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Geoffrey
Bob, I can tell you that there wasn't much differece in speed between the two groups, and that the closing rates from the faster cars was as much as 50-75mph at times based on my experiences. I thought for the most part, the slower cars, when running in the Cup group, did a good job at pointing people by which helped significantly.
BTW, Thanks to Joel Reiser and Larry (as usual) for helping me with the defective clutch assembly. We almost fixed it, but at least I went home knowing what to do.
05-18-2007, 08:47 PM
#178
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Originally Posted by Bill N
What a great event! It's my third time, and I'll be back next year, if the car holds out. Many thanks to the organizers, and all those who made it great. And, special thanks to Rick Betterley, who was generous enough, and a talented enough instructor to come out with me and help me start to get past a block that was really bugging me.
Bill
Bill
You did great; bring that attitude to your next event and you are all set.
See you at Le Circuit!
05-18-2007, 09:55 PM
#179
C&S
It was great to see all of you at the Glen. It was also nice to put faces to the online names. Big fun! 
Sean, good speaking with you. Sorry I didnt make it out with you. Next time.
Geoffry, had a blast trying to stay ahead of you. Too bad my car crapped out on Thursday as I know we would have had more fun.
Looking forward to seeing you all at the metro DE and Club Race.
JL
Sean, good speaking with you. Sorry I didnt make it out with you. Next time.
Geoffry, had a blast trying to stay ahead of you. Too bad my car crapped out on Thursday as I know we would have had more fun.
Looking forward to seeing you all at the metro DE and Club Race.
JL
05-18-2007, 10:37 PM
#180
Originally Posted by Bill N
What a great event! It's my third time, and I'll be back next year, if the car holds out. Many thanks to the organizers, and all those who made it great. And, special thanks to Rick Betterley, who was generous enough, and a talented enough instructor to come out with me and help me start to get past a block that was really bugging me.
There has been a little discussion already about the mixture of cups and saucers, and there was a fair amount of discussion in the garage about the cups running in the saucers group. I am a devout saucer, and find there are pro's and con's to the current arrangement, but on balance I would like to come out on the side of more segregation of the two groups.
It's fun to have a variety of cars and speeds on the track. It was pretty common for a flock of cups running together to pass as a group, whether all had been given permission or not. Usually, I didn't mind...I had come to expect it, and it spices things up to have to be aware, and to find a different line through a corner, as this often resulted in pretty late passing. I found it commonplace enough, though, that it was hard to get a rhythm going at my substantially slower pace. Moreover, if I had found someone roughly my pace to follow or who might be following me (I always enjoy this), it tended to bust things up, and we would lose each other in traffic.
So, FWIW, my suggestion: segregated groups, self-assignment at the time of registration, with the organizers and participants having the option to reassign at the event.
See ya next year
Bill
There has been a little discussion already about the mixture of cups and saucers, and there was a fair amount of discussion in the garage about the cups running in the saucers group. I am a devout saucer, and find there are pro's and con's to the current arrangement, but on balance I would like to come out on the side of more segregation of the two groups.
It's fun to have a variety of cars and speeds on the track. It was pretty common for a flock of cups running together to pass as a group, whether all had been given permission or not. Usually, I didn't mind...I had come to expect it, and it spices things up to have to be aware, and to find a different line through a corner, as this often resulted in pretty late passing. I found it commonplace enough, though, that it was hard to get a rhythm going at my substantially slower pace. Moreover, if I had found someone roughly my pace to follow or who might be following me (I always enjoy this), it tended to bust things up, and we would lose each other in traffic.
So, FWIW, my suggestion: segregated groups, self-assignment at the time of registration, with the organizers and participants having the option to reassign at the event.
See ya next year
Bill
Maybe I'll squeeze NNJR @ Mosport. Either way I dice wih you later!
Alan