SundayDriver

The discussion about running track events in the GhettoRacer thread, and all his old assertions about how safe the track is, got me to thinking.

OK, so I KNOW this is not practical, and it would eliminate a lot of good instructors, but here is an idea to kick around...

Event Organizers - No one should be allowed to be the event organizer unless they have; 1) Watch someone that they personally know leave the track in a life flight, ambulance or body bag AND 2) Have personally crased at least once on the track.

Instructors - No one should be allowed to instruct unless they have spun or crashed at least three times on the track.

WHY? Event organizers, in many cases, are too removed from the real risks of what they are putting together. Many organizers and instructors lack the personal experience of getting completely out of control and figuring out how to deal with it. Most people screw up their first spin - usually by trying a hero save. IMO, it takes at least 3 spins (or crashes) to start to understand what you really can and can not do in such a situation.

Larry Herman

I think that this will be an interesting thread. I need one point of clarification Mark: when talking about spins, do you mean the "it's gone and nothing I do can save it" type or the "I'm losing it, and so I'm taking it off the track to stay in control" type?

Carrera51

Mark:
Interesting thread. Personally, I have had multiple spins on the track, a few trips into the kitty litter, which required a pull to get out, brushed the styrofoam at Watkins Glen, but have never "crashed" my car in a DE or a race. I have some great video of me avoiding two spinning cars in the rain at Summit Point. Having experienced the above I think does make me a better instructor.

ltc

It will certainly reduce the number of potential/qualified candidates, especially in a volunteer staffed organization.
Perhaps the track would be able to provide personnel who meet your criteria?

Bull

I understand the "logic" behind the question, and certainly qualify on all requirements, but would like to think it ain't so, but can't argue why. I am glad that one of the qualifications for flight instructors isn't having crashed a plane!

JackOlsen

I'm fully qualified at all of the tracks I instruct at with the spin/crash rule. My car is currently in for repairs and paint.

And as odd as it sounds, I think there's some merit in what you're suggesting. It wouldn't be practical to implement, but finding new ways to diminish the desensitization to the risks of tracking cars is essential.

Disaster preparedness is hardest for the disasters that occur with the least frequency, and one of the most dangerous aspects of driving on a racetrack is -- ironically -- the fact that it's usually so safe. If one person were seriously injured at each event, we'd all remain much more vigilant about the risks.

Any volunteers?

I think it's one of the useful things the internet brings to this hobby. You could easily track your car for a decade or more in one region and not see a really serious accident. But with Rennlist and other BBS's, we all learn about the fatalities (like the recent ones at California Speedway, Thunderhill, Buttonwillow and Lime Rock) and get reminded of the fact that this hobby can be fatal.

Tom W

It's certainly an interesting notion. While I'm pretty sure most event organizers and most instructors out here easily meet the 3 spins criterion, I'm not sure how many people have seen a friend helicoptered out or removed in a body bag. That criterion is not one (thankfully) that's happens very often. How many on Rennlist have ever seen this?

I'm a newcomer as this is only my 4th year with about 50 days at the track. In that time -in DE- I've seen (or my appropriately been present during) one incident of car-to-car contact (it was 'minor' in that no one got hurt) and a small number number (4-5) of one car accidents where the car was totaled or had significant damage. I've never seen a significant injury and hope to keep it that way. I've seen one car-to-car incident in a race and the organizers were NOT happy to see it.

38D

I made this exact same point with my "it takes one good shunt to be a good instructor" comment. This was met with jeers from the peanut gallery (interestingly enough, mostly from people that had actually crashed multiple times). Anyway, until you have lost it AND had a bad result, it is far to easy to laugh it off. When you wad it up, you tend to look at things more critically and try to figure out why.

Bob Scotto once said to me "you're not a real racer until you've has the big one and can get past it." I agree.

Oh, and I would waive the life flight requirement so long as you've been inverted at least once. Now that changes your perspective, and quite literally!

Eyal 951

I definetly agree that experience is necassary, but I dunno if I'd go as far as you suggest. I have personaly had at least 3 spins. I have also caught a car on fire in an off. Luckily the fire was put out before serious damage could be done. There is definetly a lot of experience and knowhow to be gained. I don't think i have as many recent spins. (not that it happens often anyway)
the most frightening is trying to avoid the car in front of you, spinning on the driving line in a fast sweeper. That happened at WSIR, I couldn't believe I kept it on the track... talk about an adreneline rush.
Eyal

RedlineMan

Yeh, what Bull said!

That is indeed an interesting train of thought. I do agree with you that there is nothing like that kind of experience. Forgive me if I don't go right out and try to gain it! I also think it is a bit of a stretch to assume it was instructive. I would wager that there are many that never truly wrap their minds around why they spun/biffed, and as such do not gain the type of insight you seek. To the extent that it is instructive, I wish I DID have it, but I'd rather not lose a car trying.

Along the lines of what you are driving at, I think, a story. Years ago at an Upper Canada Region DE at Mosport, there were numerous folks not behaving within the spirit of the event. At one point (and COMPLETELY unrelated to those bad seeds), a fellow unfortunately crashed HARD into the wall on the left exiting turn 2, and wrote off one of the very first 993s in the country.

Rainer Beltzner (I think that is the correct spelling) was the event chief and attitude adjuster in those days, if memory serves me. He got on the radio and in no uncertain terms ORDERED everyone to the base of the tower for a drivers meeting... NOW! He had the crushed car dropped right there, fluids still dripping, and had everyone take a long hard look at the consequences of what we were doing.

I have always greatly respected not only him, but the owner of the car, for having the courage to stand up and make a much-needed point instead of trying to hide it or sweep it under the rug.

JC in NY

I sorta agree but THREE crashes? Any sucker back after three big ones should have his head examined, and be broke.

Larry Herman

I have often referred to this as "being humbled". My very first instructor told me that there are 2 types of drivers, those that have been humbled, and those that are going to be. I agree that you need to crash to really understand what you are doing, how dangerous this can be, and how tenuous "control" really is.

I think that a good corollary to this thread is "what did you learn from it"? I learned to never exceed my comfort level, because that level is quite high, and beyond that there is no safety margin. It also taught me to trust my instincts, and not to emulate what other people did unless I understood it thoroughly.

38D

Here here. Too many event orgnizers won't talk about the dangers for fear of upsetting people. While it is a bit of a downer, the lingering fear does not need to be there (ok, so maybe there is a little fear while driving )



good stuff Larry . It's the people that don't believe this that worry me the most.

Z-man

Hmm -
I suppose there are those for whom it takes THREE spins to learn. Others may only require one.


-Z-man.

PS: I have more than one spin - a couple in AX, a couple on the street, and one on the track...

Skip Wolfe

Great quote. I agree with the idea, although maybe not to to the severity of the requirements for the organizers. Also the spin requirement for the instructor can't be just a little 180 degree "I got on the gas too hard" spin. They need to be big hairy "holy cow I just crapped in my pants, I can't stop shaking for a while" spin. Those are the ones that humble you and teach you some respect. I'm always amazed at how may instructors have never had a big spin or off.

I can still remember my first big off. I was invited to an instructor open day on a Friday before an event. I was not an instructor yet, but was looking to become one. Well I got on the gas too hard on a fast right hander (T3 at Nelson Ledges), the boost kicked and I lost the rear end, tried to correct and lost it to the right of the track. Hit a swampy area at about 60 mph, and buried the car in 8" of water and muck. There was mud, water and grass everywhere and when i say everywhere, I mean EVERYWHERE - I am still finding dried grass in my interior 2 years later, although if it wasn't for the swamp I would have buried into the tire wall hard. The kicker was since it was an instructor day there was no corner workers and no wrecker. I also did this right before lunch and everyone had gone off the track. My buddy who was riding with me and I had to sit for about 20 minutes until someone realized we didn't come back in and came out for a lap to look for us, realized we needed towed out and went for help. Well since there was no wrecker a couple trucks came out to pull me out. Also just about every guy there was packed into the bed of the trucks and proceeded to bust my ***** mercilessly.

I was certain that I had blown my chances of getting to be an instructor by screwing up. But as I spent the next 1-2 hours hosing the mud out of every part of my wheels, brakes, suspension, etc., just about every good veteran driver, including the event chair, came over to tell me to shake it off, welcome to the club, and proceeded to tell me their own war stories of big offs. One quote from a racer buddy that stuck with me was "you never know where 10/10ths is until you get to 11/10ths". Anyway that single off really changed my outlook on things. And while I have had some more fairly hairy spins they didn't catch me nearly as much by surprise and they have been in areas where I knew I could push with minimal consequences.

Sorry for the rambling story and great thread.