This should be controversial
02-03-2006, 01:58 PM
#61
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Originally Posted by Professor Helmüt Tester
Actually, no. You've made a classic mistake, a 'fallacy of logic', known as "Affirming the Consequent" or possibly 'Denying the Antecedent'.
Definition:
Any argument of the following form is invalid:
If A then B
B
Therefore, A
Examples:
(i) If I am in Calgary, then I am in Alberta. I am in Alberta,
thus, I am in Calgary. (Of course, even though the premises
are true, I might be in Edmonton, Alberta.)
(ii) If the mill were polluting the river then we would see an
increase in fish deaths. And fish deaths have increased. Thus,
the mill is polluting the river.
Proof:
Show that even though the premises are true, the conclusion
could be false. In general, show that B might be a
consequence of something other than A. For example, the fish
deaths might be caused by pesticide run-off, and not the mill.
Definition:
Any argument of the following form is invalid:
If A then B
B
Therefore, A
Examples:
(i) If I am in Calgary, then I am in Alberta. I am in Alberta,
thus, I am in Calgary. (Of course, even though the premises
are true, I might be in Edmonton, Alberta.)
(ii) If the mill were polluting the river then we would see an
increase in fish deaths. And fish deaths have increased. Thus,
the mill is polluting the river.
Proof:
Show that even though the premises are true, the conclusion
could be false. In general, show that B might be a
consequence of something other than A. For example, the fish
deaths might be caused by pesticide run-off, and not the mill.
I think you might have supported my statement and not the original posters.
B could have nothing to do directly with A.
He said that better instructors were the ones that have had big offs. This can fall under "correlation is not causation". I think the correct statement would be the better DE instructors have had more experience behind the wheel. With more experience you will have had a greater chance to get into a big wreck. This is more of what I meant to say.
02-03-2006, 03:10 PM
#62
Race Car
great thread, but there's many concurrent issues running here.
I think the main point is Good Decisions come from Experience,
and Experience comes from Bad Decisions.
I've felt when a student is too fast in a turn, just by the seat of the pants feel. (maybe they knew it too)
But where the experience really comes into play is what decisions you make after you know you are going off. Can you make a correction during the spin, can you force a snap spin, when to release the brake, and when go give it gas, or strighten the wheel and let it roll to re-gain control.
Also knowing where the danger turns are. Theres many places on tracks crashes occur, that you wouldn't expect. And knowing where you can test the limits as there is ample run out areas.
and the difference between pushing the limits and low precentage moves. recognizing brain fade, and red mist.... And when to bail out, and drive off the track in a controled manner, vs the low percentage save attempt...
maybe you can learn this stuff without crashing, but probably not without racing.
As far as event organizers go, not too long ago, PCA was a upstart, running DE's is street cars! OMG!!! no cage, no suits, no fire bottle... what were (are), they thinking...
I can understand DE orgs wanting to bring fresh blood into the instructor roles.
There is always turnover and burn out, not to mention substantial risks.
(Do the best and brightest think instruction is a great deal? why do they do it? surely, its not for the chicks! )
I had a very enthusastic student in a turbo, watch a car loose it and hit the wall in front of us....(not bad), in a spot he wouldn't expect a car to loose it. It was probalby the best thing that could have happend to him.... he gained new respect for the track, and really listened why I was telling him to double apex a big sweeper... not that is was faster than a single apex, just a lot safer...
you know, I kinda feel sorry for GR, it seems like hes a typical hot shoe, type A personality, that can teach, but at the same time somewhat of a loose cannon, and maybe reckless and dangerous.
I think racing would give him more humility, and the realization of knowing what he doesn't know.
I think the main point is Good Decisions come from Experience,
and Experience comes from Bad Decisions.
I've felt when a student is too fast in a turn, just by the seat of the pants feel. (maybe they knew it too)
But where the experience really comes into play is what decisions you make after you know you are going off. Can you make a correction during the spin, can you force a snap spin, when to release the brake, and when go give it gas, or strighten the wheel and let it roll to re-gain control.
Also knowing where the danger turns are. Theres many places on tracks crashes occur, that you wouldn't expect. And knowing where you can test the limits as there is ample run out areas.
and the difference between pushing the limits and low precentage moves. recognizing brain fade, and red mist.... And when to bail out, and drive off the track in a controled manner, vs the low percentage save attempt...
maybe you can learn this stuff without crashing, but probably not without racing.
As far as event organizers go, not too long ago, PCA was a upstart, running DE's is street cars! OMG!!! no cage, no suits, no fire bottle... what were (are), they thinking...
I can understand DE orgs wanting to bring fresh blood into the instructor roles.
There is always turnover and burn out, not to mention substantial risks.
(Do the best and brightest think instruction is a great deal? why do they do it? surely, its not for the chicks! )
I had a very enthusastic student in a turbo, watch a car loose it and hit the wall in front of us....(not bad), in a spot he wouldn't expect a car to loose it. It was probalby the best thing that could have happend to him.... he gained new respect for the track, and really listened why I was telling him to double apex a big sweeper... not that is was faster than a single apex, just a lot safer...
you know, I kinda feel sorry for GR, it seems like hes a typical hot shoe, type A personality, that can teach, but at the same time somewhat of a loose cannon, and maybe reckless and dangerous.
I think racing would give him more humility, and the realization of knowing what he doesn't know.
Last edited by mrbill_fl; 02-03-2006 at 03:30 PM.
02-03-2006, 04:06 PM
#63
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Great thread, with lots of experience here. This really should be a mandatory read, IMHO. For the likes of me, one who has TT-ed for years but only maybe 5-6 events/year, this is a good, sobering reminder to evaluate everything everyone has said so far about the risks, experience, mindset --all things track related. From my "intermediate-skill" perspective, I'd like to add that one really does not fully grasp "it" until one does "it." In the years I've been tracking, I've spun a few times, not a lot but enough to keep me humble; and I've driven off once, knowing that the alternative would be worse (kudos to my instructors/class instruction that taught me such); but NONE of which really prepared me for the sick feeling of actually putting the car into a berm and bending sheet metal. There, now I really, truly know "it." Thankfully it was minor, but to say it was an eye-opener is an understatement. While I'm sure most all here have more harrowing experiences, this was enough to "really" get my attention. And I'm all the better for it. Anyway, just thought I'd chime in. Thanks for sharing, all ...great food for thought!
Edward
Edward
02-03-2006, 04:44 PM
#64
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by Professor Helmüt Tester
Actually, no. You've made a classic mistake, a 'fallacy of logic', known as "Affirming the Consequent" or possibly 'Denying the Antecedent'.
Definition:
Any argument of the following form is invalid:
If A then B
B
Therefore, A
Examples:
(i) If I am in Calgary, then I am in Alberta. I am in Alberta,
thus, I am in Calgary. (Of course, even though the premises
are true, I might be in Edmonton, Alberta.)
(ii) If the mill were polluting the river then we would see an
increase in fish deaths. And fish deaths have increased. Thus,
the mill is polluting the river.
Proof:
Show that even though the premises are true, the conclusion
could be false. In general, show that B might be a
consequence of something other than A. For example, the fish
deaths might be caused by pesticide run-off, and not the mill.
Definition:
Any argument of the following form is invalid:
If A then B
B
Therefore, A
Examples:
(i) If I am in Calgary, then I am in Alberta. I am in Alberta,
thus, I am in Calgary. (Of course, even though the premises
are true, I might be in Edmonton, Alberta.)
(ii) If the mill were polluting the river then we would see an
increase in fish deaths. And fish deaths have increased. Thus,
the mill is polluting the river.
Proof:
Show that even though the premises are true, the conclusion
could be false. In general, show that B might be a
consequence of something other than A. For example, the fish
deaths might be caused by pesticide run-off, and not the mill.
02-03-2006, 05:12 PM
#65
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Originally Posted by cooleyjb
He said that better instructors were the ones that have had big offs.
02-03-2006, 05:14 PM
#66
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Originally Posted by SundayDriver
The discussion about running track events in the GhettoRacer thread, and all his old assertions about how safe the track is, got me to thinking.
OK, so I KNOW this is not practical, and it would eliminate a lot of good instructors, but here is an idea to kick around...
Event Organizers - No one should be allowed to be the event organizer unless they have; 1) Watch someone that they personally know leave the track in a life flight, ambulance or body bag AND 2) Have personally crased at least once on the track.
Instructors - No one should be allowed to instruct unless they have spun or crashed at least three times on the track.
WHY? Event organizers, in many cases, are too removed from the real risks of what they are putting together. Many organizers and instructors lack the personal experience of getting completely out of control and figuring out how to deal with it. Most people screw up their first spin - usually by trying a hero save. IMO, it takes at least 3 spins (or crashes) to start to understand what you really can and can not do in such a situation.
OK, so I KNOW this is not practical, and it would eliminate a lot of good instructors, but here is an idea to kick around...
Event Organizers - No one should be allowed to be the event organizer unless they have; 1) Watch someone that they personally know leave the track in a life flight, ambulance or body bag AND 2) Have personally crased at least once on the track.
Instructors - No one should be allowed to instruct unless they have spun or crashed at least three times on the track.
WHY? Event organizers, in many cases, are too removed from the real risks of what they are putting together. Many organizers and instructors lack the personal experience of getting completely out of control and figuring out how to deal with it. Most people screw up their first spin - usually by trying a hero save. IMO, it takes at least 3 spins (or crashes) to start to understand what you really can and can not do in such a situation.
Type B: May never race but enjoys the track.
Type A: You know they're going to end up club racing at some point.
Talk to someone for more than two minutes and you can easily categorize them into one or the other group.
If I know they are a type B and want to learn to drive I'd gladly assign them to instructors that I know who never spin and have never crashed. I know a few and these specific people are good comunicators and good instructors for this group. They are conservative and will reel in students that are getting in over their heads. These are the instructors that are more likely to hold you back than give you a lot of reign.
If I know they are type A then those are the type that go to the instructors that club race. Those of us in this instructor group are the ones who spin, crash, cause the most trouble, get yelled at for being overagressive, etc.
This group of students are already going to be with people who have spun and crashed by default. I also think they are going to get a higher level of instruction by a better skilled group of people. But green group newbies don't need this type of instruction on day one.
Personally I really don't enjoy working with B students and particularly newbies. I'm much happier with people that can already drive and have an inclination to be an A type driver. I can relate to them better.
IMHO I don't think the rule applies to instructors. I know instructors that NEVER spin. I don't know how they do it. And despite that bit of information if I knew someone who wanted to learn how to dirve I'd prefer to sign someone up with them than someone else. Especially newbies.
02-03-2006, 05:49 PM
#67
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Originally Posted by SundayDriver
You might want to read my post again. I didn't say that and, in fact, I even made a very different statement about what the concept would do to some good instructors.
True your first post said you shouldn't be allowed to be an instructor if you haven't had 3 major spins/offs etc. And you said that about 3 different ways in further posts.
If you had said the you shouldn't be allowed to be a DE instructor without "X amount of time" of experience then I would agree with you but not with the you must have some big shunts to know what can happen.
I think a thread like this would be more useful if it was started with the topic
"What traits are needed to make a competent and good DE instructor"
02-03-2006, 05:54 PM
#68
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by camber799
Type B: May never race but enjoys the track.
Type A: You know they're going to end up club racing at some point.
Type A: You know they're going to end up club racing at some point.
TYPE A: Fast
TYPE B: Slow
Not all type A people race, but most do. Type A tends to have more spins/crashes. Type B has few/no spins crashes, and thinks that the type As are "dangerous".
02-03-2006, 05:58 PM
#70
Originally Posted by cooleyjb
I know this is off topic but 38D's avatar is not work safe does anyone else think this is a problem?
02-03-2006, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by 38D
I would say the difference is:
TYPE A: Fast
TYPE B: Slow
Not all type A people race, but most do. Type A tends to have more spins/crashes. Type B has few/no spins crashes, and thinks that the type As are "dangerous".
TYPE A: Fast
TYPE B: Slow
Not all type A people race, but most do. Type A tends to have more spins/crashes. Type B has few/no spins crashes, and thinks that the type As are "dangerous".
I definately agree that the type B people think the type A group is dangerous, reckless, etc. It isn't necessarily the case. They just can't relate. All they think is: If you are faster than they are you must be "reckless". Right?
While I'm not reckless I'm definately of the type A persuasion...
02-03-2006, 06:27 PM
#72
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Originally Posted by camber799
If I know they are type A then those are the type that go to the instructors that club race. Those of us in this instructor group are the ones who spin, crash, cause the most trouble, get yelled at for being overagressive, etc.
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
02-03-2006, 06:54 PM
#73
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Good read, I can say I qualify with honors in the spins and a certain big off.......... it leaves a lasting impression. I remember it almost every morning when I wake up as my ankle pops and grinds until enough lubricants have circulated. I have had the mis-fortune of seeing a friend die at the track near 15 years ago and know it could have been me had I selected his line as we raced into the same corner. Up close and personal its something I would not reccomend, but it leaves a lasting impression you cannot forget.
This thread and its reasoning make complete sense.
This thread and its reasoning make complete sense.
02-03-2006, 07:07 PM
#74
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Originally Posted by TD in DC
I think it is work safe. I also find myself hypnotized by it for minutes at a time. Imagine homer drooling. Truly pathetic. You must be a Type B driver just a little joke for Friday
02-03-2006, 07:21 PM
#75
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Originally Posted by cooleyjb
I know this is off topic but 38D's avatar is not work safe does anyone else think this is a problem?