trumperZ06

Good thread, Mark.

I agree with the majority... drivers need a fair amount of Experience... before becoming Instructors. Part of the "learning curve" is pushing yourself a bit beyond your "confort level", as you move up from Novice to Inter-mediate! Most tracks have at least two or three corners that are low/mid speed with reasonable run-off areas... that's where pushing a bit under CONTROLED CONDITIONS... is acceptable.

By the time you reach the Advanced class, you should have enough "car control" to avoid spins... except for the odd incident... such as oil/coolent on the track or mechnical failure.

Nothing is more Embarassing... then seeing a driver (or the Chief Instructor) in the instructor group.. spinning out on cold tires...

Larry Herman

Maybe you do not need to feel that to understand, but that does not mean that other people are the same as you. I have been instructing for over 20 years and I know for a fact that many of the people who sit to the left of me do not have a complete appreciation for what can happen. The last DE that I was at in the fall a Green student (not mine) totalled his beautiful 944S. With tears in his eyes he said that he didn't think that something like this could happen. It would be really interesting to take a poll at the next DE to see how many people think that something may happen to them at that event. Maybe I'll start one up here just for fun. I personally know of a few drivers in the advanced group who are an accident waiting to happen. They drive way over their heads, and have frequent off-track excursions. They refuse to slow down and even thought they have been told, they really are headed for that first big one. What can you do?

TD in DC

It is human nature not to understand something fully until you go through it personally. You can be told something a million times, and even understand it on an intellectual basis, but not really "get" it until you go through it. If it were otherwise, there would never be any car wrecks, aids, etc . . .

It may not be practical to limit instructor and administrator positions to those who have been "fortunate" enough to learn through the experience of a "big off," but you should be able to distinguish between those who "need" to have that experience and those who are reasonable enough to act as though they already have.

Earlierapex

So if I'm a really good driver and don't spin or go off the track, then I don't qualify as an instructor?

Having said that, under your new rules, I would qualify...

-dc

Premier Motorsp

I have had a few huge crashes. I left in the ambulance one time. That time I was really lucky and probably had about a 99% chance of serious injury but still got away with it.

These crashes gave me two important lessons:

1. None of the crashes happened when I was just pushing too hard. Instead they happened because I had less than 100% concentration and because I wasn't taking what I was doing 100% seriously.

2. Luck is the biggest factor of all. But try not to do things that hurt your chances of being lucky!

I had one crash that wouldn't have been survivable had I been wearing a HANS device. I had another where I could have died because I didn't have a HANS device. You just don't know.

I don't know if any of this has any bearing on my qualifications as an instructor.

Chris Cervelli
Premier Motorsports

leif997

Perhaps it should be mandated that senior and chief instructors should set up one run at each DE event where the solo drivers are required to take an instructor with them to re-evaluate that student's skill levels. Everyone can gain benefit from further instuction at every level. Early solo drivers may be compounding simple errors that ultimately culminate into "the big one". Without continued intermittant observation and corrections; on track incidents are always going to be a problem. This suggestion may help to minimize such erors and benefit all who are on the track.

Just more of my endless $0.02

M758

That is one reason I drive my old 944 rather than my "pretty" Turbo S.

Years ago before I became an instructor and was still driving my 944 Turbo S on the track an interesting thing happened.

I was on a short small track. The club set up slalom cones on the main straight to keep the speeds down. Over all the speeds were at autocross level given all the other tight corners. Well I got "behind" in my steering in the slalom. Almost missed one cone. Then was way out of shape for next and in trying to make it I lost the back end. Having some experience I applied a little power to control it. That worked for a second as the rear hooked up. Problem was right after that the rear hooked too well and shot off the track at 45 degrees with no time to get on the brakes before the dirt. So I went off and sliced in between some bushes and hit a fence post. Lucky for my the fence was barbed wire and post was really old. It moved away a bit sort of like spring on the wires.

My first though however had been that "I wrecked my beloved 951 what was I going to do?"

Result? Car was stuck in the dirt and I had scratched the bra. No paint or body damage. I got lucky.

Now I leared a couple things.
1) There are times to save it and times to "bail out". Trying to save it too long can cause more problems than just giving up and going both feet in. Had I got both feet in on the first spin I would have stopped on track.

2) Even when you try to do things right crap can happen. Taking a "nice" car and doing lots of DE's is a bit risky. Better to have an old car that you won't worry about rock chips, a bent fender, or worse.

Even then it was 2 more years and many more off's before I got to the instructor level. Interstingly my first instructior duties were at this same track.


BTW... once the car was pulled out I went back out and ran my best lap on that track to date. You may be surprised by that, but I was very happy to get back out there asap. I am of the apporach that if you get bucked off the horse you NEED to get back on ASAP otherwise an unhealty fear may overcome you. A little fear that leads to caution and introspection is good, but fear that paralizes you is not.

Bull

Our PCA Region does do this at some of our events each season. We also strongly encourage every driver at our DEs to take an Instructor with them for at least one run at each event throughout the season.

brucegre

Ahhh, there are so many good things in this post - we should make it mandatory reading.

I have to agree with Mark because I was a firm believer in the "you don't have to spin/crash/go off to be good" philosophy - right up until my first spin. In my first year of DE I went from Green to White to Blue to Black with my 996 TT. I was the cat's ***, let me tell you. Bob Rouleau, our chief instructor, wasn't as convinced as me that I knew what I was doing, but was persuaded that I would be OK in the top run group. I took a good friend and instructor out in the passenger seat of my beautiful F355 (it'll be just the same as the 911, right? rookie mistake one), and we were just carving up the group. Until T11 at Tremblant, lost it on corner exit (rookie mistake two), tried to catch it (rookie mistake three) and then finally went two feet in on the counter spin so I wouldn't hit the wall on the outside (OK, the brain finally kicked in). Filled the track with smoke, came to a stop under the bridge, and created a potentially dangerous train of cars all trying to stop and not hit me. And guess who was in the car right behind me? Bob. I took my demotion with good grace, mostly because my reaction to the whole thing was "WTF just happened?" and I realized that the essence of high performance driving is the ability to realize what's happening and do something about it, before it bites you.

Since then, I've taken the learning part more seriously, and in the interim managed to qualify myself on all counts for Mark's criteria. My spins are never in DE, since that's not our philosophy and I stay under the limit to show a good example. Racing is a different beast, by its nature there are times where you have to push and stuff will happen. Oil, coolant, broken suspension, other cars doing funky things, lapses in concentration - you learn that the car is almost never completely out of control, it's just not going to be a very successful lap.

Having a friend taken away in an ambulance, and then coming back from the hospital and getting into the car to go out again isn't something I'd wish on anyone, but it sure tests your committment to the sport.

It's like raising kids - you can tell them all you want, but they have to go out and make their own mistakes. Much as I hate to say that you need to experience the bad stuff, I don't know how else you can get to this stage without it. And, I have a much better understanding and appreciation of the potential consequences as a result.

JCP911S

I tend ot agree that the "culture" of DE is lagging the "reality" by many years... especially with today's extremely fast, capable cars and performance equipment.

Sunday's criteria are unrealiztic but the intent of making people respect the risks and take them more seriously is certainly valid and should be a priority in the program.

Bottom line.... track driving is a risky hobby, as is skiing, hunting, climbing, kayaking, etc, etc.... students (and instructors) are going to wreck cars, and occassionally get hurt.

You can never remove the risk... you can make them aware of those risks so that they make educated decisions about the trade-offs of risk vs safety

shiners780

Agreed, I am looking at this from a personal viewpoint. To think "that couldn't happen to me" is not a thought process that has ever entered my mind during my years of track driving. In all honesty, it would amaze me for someone to have that attitude. Quite frankly, it is disconcerting to think that there may be those in my run group that have that attitude. How about those who think that it won't happen to them, as long as they realize that it can happen to them? That would be an interesting survey indeed.

Regarding the drivers who are way over their heads, and have frequent off-track excursions...this is what I had in mind when I asked "Do we really need to protect people from themselves?" If being spoken to and frequent off track excursions don't make them realize the danger, will a major shunt into a wall? According to some of the posters here, that's the only way. I suppose it depends on the person's capacity to realize danger and their level of self-preservation. Of course, at that point, the damage is already done.

Professor Helmüt Tester

Har ! Great thread. Der Professor is dusting off his classroom 'Crisis Management' course outline, but has little time to contribute to this thread. Something about getting a motor built and installed before the upcoming NASA enduro-fest at VIR...so this will be brief (and may get edited on further review):

Given Mark's criteria, I'm eminently qualified as an HPDE & race licensing school Chief Instructor (both of which I've been, in spades), but the process of 'getting there' was fraught with peril (physical & monetary). I wholeheartedly agree with his premise, which I distill down to "You don't know what you don't know." I was racing long before I ever instructed, so my perspective is a lot different than most. Never stuffed a car in HPDE, but have stuffed many, and totaled a few while racing.

HPDE organizers not recognize/whitewash/ignore the risks that students face ? Yup. When I first started incorporating the 'Crisis Management' into the curriculum, I took flack from instructors, etc., and it was generally the guys who hadn't ever 'bit it' on the track. IMO, HPDE organizers and instructors are are derelict if they don't address these issues with students.

Spinning/loss of control ? You need to completely lose it a few times before you understand the gravity of the forces your dealing with. That said, 'completely losing it' sometimes entails 'losing it in a controlled manner'. Knowing when to give up, and how to give it up, can save your hardware and possibly your life. Knowing when to stop working and just 'turtle' will save your thumbs, wrists and ankles.

Is 'loss of control' a sign of mediocre driving ? Maybe not. Anecdote: A few years ago at a race weekend at the Glen while driving in a highly competitive open cockpit sports racer class (30+ cars), I spun 3 times in practice & qualifying. Was I off my game ? Looped it once at the 90, a 360 deg., finishing it off with a lovely '2nd gear rollout', then followed that up a session later with another 360 onto the front straight, with yet another 2nd gear "I meant to do that" move. The last spin was a 720 deg. in the middle of the Outer Loop, ending up down near the long course/short course divide...that's over 100mph mid-corner...try that without hitting anything. Never stopped rolling, did another "I meant to do that" wave to the Flaggers at Station 10. I got the pole in that session, and finished P1 in the race. I learned to ignore the first big wiggle...and the second big wiggle...but NOT the third big wiggle in the Outer Loop. So...was I 'off', or was I 'REALLY on' ?

Do not casually dismiss the lessons learned by spins, offs and crashes.

cooleyjb

By this logic someone who has been in more wrecks would be a better instructor. I can think of some people who have been in numerous shunts and spun the car a few times and wrecked that would be horrible instructors. Partially because they are always getting into bad situations.

Heck, I've had some pretty big off courses and some good spins but I don't think I'd be a good DE instructor. I hate riding shotgun at speed and am not good at seeing what is going on from the right seat and it makes me sick.(one reason I've never co-drove in a rally)

You're logic in one sense could say that you won't be a good math teacher if you've never flunked an Algebra test.

Make a list of what traits would be found in a good DE instructor. Lots of wrecks and big offs aren't at the top of the list.

At the very top is the ability to teach and influence the person behind the wheel.

The second would be the desire to yank people off of the track when they are driving out of their skill set and are dangerous to themselves and others. This in my opinion would include someone who shows up to their first DE ever in a Carrera GT. Someone who doesn't listen to the instructor. Etc etc......

kurt M

There is a lot of good stuff in this thread but only some pertains to the to the original and intresting point posted by Sunday. ]

I have 2 questions.

1. Is there a problem now? A real problem, not one of perception like the fear of flying.
Does anyone have any data on track issues accidents and or injuries related to mismanagement of the event. Data.... not "Once this time at band camp" stories. Are there Pro instructor companies out there than we can compare miles per crash data against PCA or Audi club or the like.
Do pro instructed students have less offs that non pro instructed students?

2. Is failure required?
Shooting guns, deep wreck diving and driving all have rules and safety concerns that have to be followed and to do otherwise will get likely get you hurt or dead. I have done them all over the years. I have never shot myself or anyone else by accident with a handgun, never had decompression sickness, got lost in a wreck or ran out if gas on any dive including many long complex stage deco dives. I have had small non life sustaining equpment failures while on dives but having had redundant systems just went to backup and continued with the dive plan. I can shoot relatively well and I bet I can teach you to shoot well too.

I guess my point and question is this. Can a person have enough intellect to have a working understanding the gravity and complexity of a situation and act accordingly without having had to fail at some point? Can this knowledge be presented to someone else in clear enough form that they understand at a working level the same?

(This is not personal as I would qualify as a hardened instructor per the above rules. I have 3+ spins or 90 deg or better, a drive off or two but no metal damage other than scrubbing the bottom of the car on a track shoulder and backing into a trash can in the paddock. I have also seen drivers loaded into slicks multiple times)

Professor Helmüt Tester

Actually, no. You've made a classic mistake, a 'fallacy of logic', known as "Affirming the Consequent" or possibly 'Denying the Antecedent'.

Definition:
Any argument of the following form is invalid:
If A then B
B
Therefore, A

Examples:
(i) If I am in Calgary, then I am in Alberta. I am in Alberta,
thus, I am in Calgary. (Of course, even though the premises
are true, I might be in Edmonton, Alberta.)
(ii) If the mill were polluting the river then we would see an
increase in fish deaths. And fish deaths have increased. Thus,
the mill is polluting the river.
Proof:
Show that even though the premises are true, the conclusion
could be false. In general, show that B might be a
consequence of something other than A. For example, the fish
deaths might be caused by pesticide run-off, and not the mill.