Brian_77_3.6

All of the incident experiences I referenced occured during open track days and all but one involved very experienced (red run group) instructors in my region. Maybe these instructors drive over their head, I am not one to judge but I have had them as instructors over the years in my car and they gave quality instruction. I simply was making the point that seat time and experience can "humble" you without having to stuff your car. I run in the black run group and find my co drivers in the black group to be very qualified having received excellent instruction. The only time I have felt unsafe on the track in my run group or in prior years in the white run group is when drivers who have been quickly promoted (usually driving very high performance cars) are driving over their heads and probably should not have been advanced as quickly as they where. These drivers do not have respect for the dangers of the track or the experience to get out of trouble when they make a mistake. They are an incident waiting to happen. I just let these guys go around me and then look for them sitting somewhere off track as the caution or black flag comes out.

camber799

I agree on some points and somewhat disagree on others. When I was working my way up the ranks everyone said to watch the white run group drivers. Through experience I found it was the instructor group that crashed the most. I am speaking from my experience not necessarily any others.

I was very quickly promoted and I, up until now, had powerful and fast cars. I have yet to crash and I take safety very seriously.

I also am an instructor and I club race.

I think that if someone "gets it" quickly it does not mean that they aren't good or responsible.

Sometimes, IMHO, it is safer to promote someone in a fast car because it is safer for the rest of the field. There is nothing worse than having someone terrorize an entire field. But... you, as you said, you don't want to put them in over their head.

James-man

OK. I am here to argue that the suggestions made in the post are off the mark.

Lets start with kids in high school. Every few years there HAS to be a DUI fatality in order for kids to recognize that there is down home reality that may actually apply to them. Kids are immature and need proof that they are not invincible.

Now fast forward to mature adults going to play at the race track. We are not in high school any more. Unfortunately, we still need "stuff" to happen to elevate safety awareness. I accept that the infrequent major incidences elsewhere are enough for everyone to keep their heads screwed on tightly for safe events.

To organize a DE, I don't see why the type of experience you have on a track, spinning and or crashing has much bearing. An organizer may have crashed a dozen times. Does he need this to be credible? What is important is the ability to understand risk, implications of safety issues, and probably most important is the ability to communicate safety absolutes for an event.

IMHO, DE is not and should not be racing school. Not even Test and Tune. The amount that an instructor should have a student push at a DE should be much lower than that of racing school. For those experience drivers that play racing at DE are specifically violating the sprit of the event and verbal rules provided at the daily drivers meetings. This pushing it kind of behavior may be done relatively safetly by advanced drivers, but you know what? Little eyes are watching. The greenest of the green students see what is happening and learn that what is said at the drivers meeting in the morning really doesn't matter. Zoiks. They aren't supposed to think that.

This is one of many reasons why mature attitudes NEED to be reinforced or cultivated at the track. Green drivers need to have a humble attitude. More accomplished drivers need to have mature attitudes.

I think attitude (if you can be selective for DE registration) may be the greatest factor for having safe events. OK, these mature folks may not be turning in super lap times but DE isn't a timed event and is not racing.

I will partially agree that an instructor with some loss of control experience may have something ot offer when teaching others. The lions share of novice students should not be exploring the limits. I think attitude coaches are more important to new drivers than racing coaches with stories to tell.

I care about this stuff as I want to see DE remain safe (relatively of course), sane, and inexpensive to car enthusiasts.

Larry Herman

What makes you think that adults can be any less immature about certain things? Cars and racing are very ego-centric hobbies. Some adults can still be very immature about this, others can just rationalize away the true reality of the danger involved. Time for that poll.

James-man

I hear what you are saying. I believe that we are missing a venue. There is DE, there are Test and Tune days and there are races. For the ego crazed folks there needs to be an event with tons of track time, where lap timing is encouraged and run groups are clustered by lap times.

I must admit there are times where I got a thrill out of chasing someone down. But my mission to stay on the track, away from walls, and avoid contact with other cars is more acute as I have to drive home in the same car. If you want to recommend another venue for "Sissy DEs" for people like me, that is fine, I would take no offense. I like driving over a hundred miles an hour. I'd like to go a bit faster, sure - I mean what is the fun in the long term if you can't see improvement?

In a perfect world, mature attitude should be a prerequisite for participation in a driver education event. Otherwise go to the Driver Melee event (which doesn't exist except for street racers and SCCA - just kidding).

James-man

For me it was with a driver I have never seen or ran with before. He spun out in front of me on his first hot lap. Not much later in the day he gave me a point by and midtracked me as I started to pass. For me it was the unknown driver that has been the worst. I don't care how quickly people are promoted. I care when I see driving/behavior that puts me & others at risk.

Skip Wolfe

I know PCA likes to push the "DE's are not timed events" agenda, which is good - I agree with the logic. But lets face reality, you can walk up to a intermediate or better driver at one of these events and ask them what lap time they are running and the vast majority will be able to tell you without hesitation what they're running. Most - not all - do time themselves on a somewhat regular basis, and most are working on getting "better" which translates to getting faster. So I agree that DE should always make safety the number 1 priority, but let not kid ourself, most drivers who have caught the bug are pushing themselves.

For the most part the newbies aren't the ones who scare me as an instructor, it's the intermediates - the unconscious incompetents. The guys that have gotten over the initial jitters, and are now just fast enough to be dangerous. They are usually at the point that the are just starting to mod the car, getting r-comp tires etc., and consequently get way over their head very quickly. Even the most mature adult can intellectually understand that it is dangerous, when the reach this intermediate level the they lulled into a false sense of security and do not know how close to the edge they are getting. They are exploring the limits but don't fully know it. This, IMHO, is where the battle scarred instructor has an edge over the instructor with no spins.

James-man

So instructors for intermediates should be more experienced, harsher instructors. I'd buy that. I would also agree with the risk levels here.

Brian_77_3.6

I agree with this to a point. Moving a beginner who "gets it" from green to blue quickly (1st or second event) is okay as there is still an instructor with the student for at least part of the DE. I do not however think that a student should move to a white (solo run group) in their third of fourth event. I progressed through one level a year for my first three years. 4 or 5 events each year at all the different tracks my club runs on. I think drivers should have experience at all the tracks their club runs in an instructed group before beginning to drive in a solo group. Taking a driver who caught on quickly and has some natural talent along with lots of testosterone (the "A" type driver) is a recipe for disaster when they have the mind set that they are a great and fast solo driver. They are not equipped to learn a new track solo. The cones that are placed at turn in, apex and track out points are fine for beginners but they are certainly not placed correctly for driving those corners near the limit. The skills required to figure out a race track take practice. Talent can give them greater car control but there is no substitute for seat time as far as the total package needed to drive fast and be safe on a race track. Move an inexperienced but fast driver up to black and you now add the the ability to pass at any point on the track except in corners. Late passes off line. Eyes that are not trained to look ahead to put their car where they want it to be. I run in black now after spending 3 seasons in white. The guys who bounced from white to black quickly are the ones that I see taking off track excursions frequently. They moved up without developing all the skills required. They drive on their talent, not on a well developed set of skills. There are exceptions but this is what I have observed about the majority of those who moved up quickly.

James-man

Like I said, there is not other venue for cars to run like maniacs and get times like they (ahem, we) want.

DE is sacred from an insurance standpoint. If the limit gets pushed too far, DEs will be explicitly excluded from auto insurance policies.

Methinks that maybe there should be fewer DE events and more time trial type events.

Please don't take me too seriously - I am watching TV and am only running on 1/2 a brain.

camber799

Some move up faster than others. You have to look at each driver individually.

Almost all of the drivers I have seen crash have been experienced black or red run group drivers and/or club racers.

of the track crashes I have seen occured during events that I parcipated in were almost entirely black and red run group drivers. As you progress you push harder.

camber799

There is great safety within DE programs due to the insurance that many drivers have (with the exception of Massachusetts and perhaps a few other states). If you jump to a timed event you have to buy race insurance or self-insure.

Plus, there really are a lot of options already if you want to make the jump from DE.

GhettoRacer

Yep, at NSX Club event 3-4 years ago, I was running the Kumho 712 street tires on NSX which is a very noisy tire when approching traction limit. The event master was very conservative and blacked flagged me in. Puzzled at the flag, I asked, what's wrong?! The event master replied, you are making lots of tire noises, we are afraid you are going to crash. I was like, ehh? We're only running like 8.0-8.5/10th... not even getting close to not being control.

Certainly there a lot of arguments can be made about what the ultimate traction limit of the car is; usually it is limited by the driver. There are also many instances where novice/intermediate over drives the car, and "appears" to be at the limit. Often time they simply exceed the limit, but drops back to like 80% of traction on average, whereas an experienced driver/instructor can show them how to drive at 90-95% traction, making it look smooth and more effortless, while making less noise... Sometimes these cases the best way to show them is to drive their car... You don't need to drive hard. Just a corner or two you can demonstrate it, and usually after just 1/2 lap you will have the student asking for more...

38D

Don't fool yourself into thinking that insurance definitely applies at DE. I know of several people whose claims were denied. It really comes down to the claims adjuster who handles your case. It make take a year or more to get the $s, or you may even have to go to court. Either way, it is unlikely that a DE claim will be a smooth process.

Brian_77_3.6

How does insurance equal greater safety? Insurance will fix or pay you for the investment in the car but your life (and maybe the life of others) is at risk when you have an incident. Track safety requires awarness and respect for the dangers the sport poses, not insurance.