993inNC

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TD in DC

In short, you are saying that you believe the best instructors and administrators are those who have the broadest possible range of experiences the track can offer, which includes unintentional offs, spins or wrecks, but that it may not be practical to limit those positions only to people with extremely broad experience ranges since most are volunteer organizations. Makes perfect sense to me.

I have spun a few times now that I have been driving cars without PSM, including in top gear full throttle with the Skippy School at Laguna Seca when I dropped two wheels off into the mud at track out of Turn 10. Once I dropped off, even though I knew it was coming and was thinking about how I needed to just drive straight without trying to "drive" the car back on the track, I was completely out of control when I hit the mud. I went both feet in, spun several times but avoided a concrete wall by about 10 feet. I would never spin on purpose, and hate it when I do, but you do learn from experience.

I am usually suspicious of those who seem to want too badly to be (a) "promoted" in run groups (b) signed off solo or (c) an instructor. There is much to learn in the lower ranks, and no shame in doing so. Someday I may be asked to be an instructor, and I will probably agree to do so in an effort to pay back the help that I have been given, but it is certainly not one of my goals. I can imagine that being a good instructor would be very hard work and require sufficient experience so that you can really understand what your student is going through. I doubt that I would ever reach the conclusion that I have sufficient experience or overcome my natural tendancy towards laziness such that I would strive to be an instructor That's why I respect GOOD instructors so much.

M758

I don't really agree with the event organizer requirements. I do however agree with the spirit of the instructor thing.

Not sure if 3 is the right number, but you will be a much better instructor if you have exceed the control limit a few times. It is not a matter of 11/10's as you can easily keep it on track at 11/10ths. You just lose time by sliding a bit too much. Going off all about losing control to the point were you are just a passenger. It does not mean crashing in my mind. I my driving carrer I have been off more times that I can count. I have damaged the car only once. Intersting that was of my offs where I in the most control.

Point is knowing what it feels like to spin off is a very handy skill in passenger's side. Reason is that I can detect when the car may go off long before the student. This gives me time to do two things. Firstly yell instructions to try to save the car. 2) Prepare for impact.
Seriously I have never had any student of mine make contact with anything while I was riding along. I have had a few students exceed their control level. Luckily those were in spots were there was run off to allow it.

For those that think going off and not crashing is luck... well I don't believe that. There are many places on various tracks were offs can be routinly tolerated. Those are places to test the limits. It is however not the best idea to test the limits were one slight mistake will cost you. I know that we on the west coast have tracks much more condusive to "harmless" offs, but that still does not change the idea. Really DE is all about learning and having fun. If you crash the car you don't learn much nor is it any fun. Go off in a place with room and well it may not be fun, but you can learn something.

38D

Come spend the next 10 years driving at Watkins Glen, Mosport, Lime Rock, Road Atlanta and Even Pocono and see if you change your mind.

Larry Herman

I agree with Joe's statement "For those that think going off and not crashing is luck... well I don't believe that.". Going off and not crashing is skill. Spinning off and not crashing is luck, and lots of it. Going off implies that you have decided to take the car off the track, rather than risk spinning, and that you still have a measure of control. When you spin off, you have no control. Maybe some will think that this is semantics, but there is a big difference.

seege

Man, I know that feeling. That instant when you realize you're going over is just sickening. Just remember, "If you're going in hard, thumbs in!"


I was driving one of those postal-delivery jeeps converted to an ice cream truck waaayy back when. I took my eyes off the road and reached to pick something up and wham - I hit a parked car. Everything was okay but my ego and my left thumb- broken from the wheel spin at impact. Since then I don't ever hook my thumbs inside a steering wheel. So I guess it's true that the painful memories teach well.

ZBlue996Kam

Going in too fast
no room at track out
decided to go off
hit a huge pothole off track
car flew off the ground (4 to 5 feet)
little skill and a lot of luck (the bad kind)

My friend Ed has the pleasure of seeing my car's under tray at speed

M758

Well I have never driven those tracks. The tracks I drive typically have run off in many corners or have run off in places that need it and little run off in places that don't.


So therefore I push like hell in places where I have room to go off or spin. In places where I don't have room to spin off safely I am MUCH more carefull. I practice my on the limit skills in the places I have run off. Then I use those skills in places where is less run off so that I don't need to go off.

Really I think much can be learned from "harmless" spins and from pushing like hell in "safe" corners. Sadly there are many places with percious few corners with tons of runoff. West coast tracks tend to have much more space thats all.

macnewma

I am by no means experienced enough to vote yea or nay on this opinion, but I can say that I spun my first time out. I was gaining speed with each session as I began to get the hang of it and I ended up going into slow corner a bit too hot. Well, I started to come around and had to put both feet in, which I did.

I righted the car and we drove into the hot pits. My instructor, who was quite good, explained to me that spin is just a cheap crash. Had it been on another turn or another track it may have been the wall and may have been our lives. He wasn't scolding me, but there was absolute seriousness to what he was telling me. It wasn't hyperbole to him and that will always stay with me.

I was thoroughly humbled (not that I had much ego going anyway, but whatever was there disappeared). I can remember it like it happened 5 minutes ago. It is almost like "seeing the light".

I agree that until you have felt that, you can't fully grasp the true reality of driving on a track.

38D

Unfortunately, there are basically zero corners that are "safe" at any east coast track. The closest thing is some paved runoff at the end of a few straights.

fstockcarrera

I have to Agree with M758. In That to explore the limits of yourself and your car you need to pick your corner and to push to the limit, and at times over your limit. For Me it is the left hander @ Lime Rock park, and even today never turn 10 at the Glen where there absolutely no where to go. So if you would like to learn, push like hell in safe corners otherwise you will progress much more slowly. Crashing is not a prerequisite for anything except paying a 20k bill. I have spun 40 + times, crashing once. Lucky? Yes maybe, but I believe the plural of luck is Skill! Even though the back end has progressed well past ninety degrees does not mean you can not continue to influence the cars trajectory. To continue to progress with my skills I need to push myself and my car to their limits even @ a DE if for only one corner at a time. Those who do not will be left behind. This is what drives me. I understand that other instuctors are happy just driving around,( usually non racers) but they offer limited insight to @ the limit car skills for their Students.

Bob Scotto Hope to see you larry H. soon

Larry Herman

That's not true at all, Colin. There's plenty of safe corners on the Eastern tracks. There's turn 2 at Pocono, and turn 1 at VIR, and....and....uhh.....umm.

Bull

I have found this to be very true over the years. It is possible to "catch" a 911 at 180 degrees and "drive" it backwards to safety, as I experienced at Lime Rock when I hit some freshly laid down oil in the Downhill turn.....same run where 38D disposed of his car a couple of laps later on another part of the track.

shiners780

My post was not directed at you personally. I have never and will never comment on a specific person's ability. I used the term "you" in a collective manner, such as "You should obey the law", you being collective, everyone, not you SundayDriver specifically. I apologize if my wording was not chosen carefully enough.

Your post encompasses two distinct thought processes, which is clearly the case based on the variety of posts submitted here. Some are commenting on the value of biffs as being humbling, allowing an awareness of the risk that one might not have had before. Others are commenting on the value of biffs as a learning tool to understand what happens at a certain point, where that point is, and how best to cope with the aftermath of overshooting that point. Two completely different thought processes.

From your post, I assumed you were talking about DE's, as opposed to racing, since you used the word "instructors" three times, and didn't mention race/racing/competition at all. It's given that DE's and racing are two different dogs, and the expectations of offs are different between the two. To discuss this topic, I think it's important to make the distinction between the two.

I agree that there is value in exceeding the limit as a learning tool to help determine where the limit is. However, I don't think that one has to spin or crash to find value in exceeding the limit. Hey, your thread title stated this would be controversial, it would be pretty boring if everyone always agreed, wouldn't it? Maybe Skip Barber could state it better than I, "I just don't think spinning the car trying to find the limit works. If you have to be going backwards to know you made a mistake, you're not too smart." Or Danny Sullivan, "You've got to take small steps to find out where the limit is. You have to learn that fine line of where the car starts to break loose and learn to control it. But, to spin to find the limit? Not on a damned oval, you don't." Of course, oval or road course, the walls are just as hard.

I do not agree with the thought process that spins and crashes are necessary for someone to realize the ramifications of the risks involved with track driving. Injury, death, property damage. What else is there? I don't need the shakey kneed feeling, the feeling of helplessness, or that sunk feeling that I just took out somone else's car, to realize the risks. Maybe my sense of self-preservation is greater than others, I don't know. That also probably makes me slower, but if I had to choose between slower with no crashes and faster with crashes, I'll take the former. This is also where the distinction between racing and DE's is important.

My comment about taking up another hobby if you (again, collectively, not directed specifically to you) need three spins or crashes to understand...was in regarding to the thought process of needing spins or crashes to realize the risk. Maybe that's not what you meant, but based on the variety of responses, your post could be taken different ways.

Let's assume your hypothetical idea was put into action. What would be your intended outcome? What benefit would students and/or participants get from this policy? I think those questions are important in this discussion.

leif997

being able to understand proprioceptively where you are in backward driving has helped me twice in racing. Once at Mosport at this last years club race, I was tooling along, bumper to tail, behind a guy in a cup car gtc3, and was following his line in a practice run. He seemed to know it pretty well, but come to the down hill after/in turn 2, he went late and wide and I was right behind him and before I knew it, since neither of us broke before the turn, we got light and loose in the marbles. Next thing my car is rotating counterclock-wise and he is going straight off and is perpendicular to me and is looking to T-bone me. I let off of the brake and turned the wheel to the right to change my angle to be oblique to his and let the car roll backward towards the tirewall, once he was clear by me, I cut the wheel hard to the right and turned the car's rear away from the wall and kept the wheel right until I was facing forward again and resumed my warm up session. (everyone followed that, right?) One other simple tool that you can "try" to practice is that once a spin is starting and you feel everything beginning to slide, a momentary release and regrip of the wheel will allow the car to find a straight path that diminishes the slide effect , allows the tires to grip up abit and gives you a second to find the correction need with additional grip attained by the release and regrasp....I am sure experienced racers know this but I thought I would put it out there for "newbies"; i.e. DE instructors