shiners780

If you need 3 spins (or crashes) to start to understand what you really can and can not do in such a situation, you should take up another hobby IMHO. You can experience the limits of a car, blow a corner, and still save the car. This is how you find the limits. Taking tiny bites until that limit is reached. Spinning out of control and crashing means you took too big a bite, or that you didn't recognize a mistake early enough to correct it. If you need to be up against Armco to realize you made a mistake, then racing is not for you.

Everyone knows the ramifications of crashing a car, we see it in the news every day. Do we really need to protect people from themselves? Darwinism rules!

Larry Herman

Don't take offense, but maybe you are one of the ones that this is aimed at. Your statement is inaccurate; people may understand the ramifications, but they don't believe it, or more importantly they don't believe it will happen to them. It's like sex, you may have understood the process, but you didn't understand it until you had it. Until you crash once, you do not know the helplessness, the fear of being injured, the stupidity (why me) and the realization that you may not be able to control your destiny. Yeah, you can say that you know, but you really don't know because you haven't felt it. BTW, some of us are quick learners. It only took me one time.

leif997

One of the first things that they teach at Skippy three day school is how to "almost" spin yet control it with trail braking/slip angle corrections combined with deep threshold braking into a hairpin turn exercises. In a controlled environment, it is most essential to understand a cars limits so that a working knowledge of such maneuvers can be logged and called upon in a race environment. Until you have been properly coached or pushed into locking your brakes up in a deep turn and asked to induce a spin situation by skilled intructors who then show you how to correct the potential outcomes of such situations; one cannot assume to assimilate this valuable experience in a DE environment safely, let alone in a sanctioned race environment.Nor should they be considered qualified to "instruct" other drivers/students.

There is merit in the original statement of this thread but the tranlsation is that there is no substitute for experience and quite frankly, most DE instructors do not know the implications of threshold braking or the valuable tool it is to pass on to their students. Mst are quite happy to run a lead and follow class without any car contol skills being related to the students beacause THEY DON'T HAVE THEM EITHER. Most DE instructors, IMHO, are guys and gals who, through friendships formed with regional instructors gain a rapid (too rapid) progression through the "color ranks" of PCA driving levels and are thus ultimately promted to being an unskilled and unknowledged "instructor". I use this term loosely. Pointing out the driving line does not an instructor make.

It is my opinion that all PCA "insrtuctor candidates" enroll in a sanctioned 3 day racing school for formalized training and instruction. Otherwise future DE students are destined to become a case of the "blind leading the blind". Just because an elder regional instructor can drive loops around a circuit without incident does not mean this person is qualified to teach. Most instructors could easily be mistaken shopping for groceries with all of the skills that they display in their "high performance instruction".

How's that for controversial? let'em fly.....

Bull

Hmmm Larry, crashes are like sex....well, there is nothing anti-climatic about either! I will give you another example that hopefully no others can relate to directly...it is like being shot at vs. being shot. There IS a very big difference!

Seriously, I agree with Larry.

JackOlsen

Many drivers can't shake the belief that whether they crash or not is something that they get to decide. Maybe this is why the suggestion was made that a driver could have a different understanding of things after three crashes, rather than one.

Oil on the track? Coolant? Tire, suspension, or mechanical problem? Another driver's error? Another driver's tire, suspension, or mechanical problem? The list of things we can't predict or fully prepare for is much longer than the easy list of the things under our control.

The point I take from the original post for this thread is that we have to learn -- and then continuously remind ourselves -- of the danger of what we're doing. Even if no one makes a mistake, ever, this hobby is still dangerous and it's still going to occasionally kill people.

Darwin was right, of course, but that doesn't mean the 'naturally selected' driver isn't going to slam into my sheet metal on his way to being deposited in history's waste bin.

I always try to give extra space to the guys who brag about never spinning.

RJay

All true, but crashing doesn't just happen at the track. Some thirty-three years ago I wrapped my MGB around a tree. The sound of crunching metal has echoed in my head ever since. I've had a few fender benders since, but nothing that could compare to walloping a 200 year old oak sideways. Yeah, that sound is faint now, but I can still hear it. I don't need to experence a tire wall for comparison purposes. OTOH, athough I've had 'it' as you put it, obviously, I havent had enough of 'it', as I'm not sure I fully understand 'it' to this day. More seat time required I guess.

MJR911

All depends what your goals are... if you want to be more than a glorifed DE All Star, I agree that you need to be absolutely humbled. I put a miata on its roof this year qualfying in the rain and came back to Payton Wilson et al clapping for me. Saying things like "well done, we've all done it once... etc" A good friend is 62 years old and is a nationally competitive (read RUNOFFS) formula ford driver. He sees his car as a tool, and not his baby, and is willing to write it off totally at any point to win.

To some of you that is sick, others know exactly what i'm talking about.... there is the difference. Do you desire to be fast at all costs? Or be "relatively" fast.

Bull

leif997, no arguement here, at least nothing significant. Having "backed in" to DE Instruction via the process of getting old.....local racing, National racing, etc....old, DE, having fun.....I can't realy relate to come at it from the other direction. I do know that I had two students lose their brakes completely on the track this season, and we didn't bend anything (maybe a slight crease in the shorts), with both saying something like "thanks! You really were calm during THAT". I guess it helped that it wasn't the first time.

Skip Wolfe

I disagree. IMHO you do cannot know the limits until you have exceeded them. There have been times I have thought I was at the limits - car loose, etc - and then I would push myself (usually chasing someone) and go faster through a turn that I swore a couple of laps before I could not have gone faster through.

And I total agree with Larry. You may logically think you know the ramifications of have a hard off or wicked spin, but until you experience that shaky leg adrenaline rush after it happens you don't understand it. I'm sure everyone who has a had a hairy one still remembers it clear as day, as well as the feeling of fear the first time they got back on the horse and went through that corner/section of track that bit them.

993inNC

Could not agree more with the "until you crash" comment. We all had this discussion not to long ago, but how can you instruct if you haven't experienced? Teaching discipline to someone else only comes from having experienced it first hand and being capable of communicating that to someone with pure passion.

SundayDriver

To clarify some things. I did not say that anyone needed to crash three times, I said spin OR crash three times. The difference between a spin, a little crash or a big crash is pretty much luck. I have gone off T1 at Willow at 120mph. Tore up the bottom of the car from the medium sized rocks. Had that been at some other tracks, that would have been a big crash.

I guess I might even expand that to include a non spinning off that was not intentional or controlled.

Bull

Now you are talking about anti-freeze from those damn water-pumpers!

SundayDriver

First, I NEVER said we need to protect people from themselves and would appreciate it if you do not try to put words in my mouth. This is about instructors and organizers who do not understand the risks.

Clearly, from your perspective, I need to take up another hobby as I am not up to this one. My first spin was mostly a WTF happened response. Second, third and a few more, were futile attempts to save a car that was too far gone. After a while, I started to get a feel for what could not be saved and go quickly both feet in vs. what could be saved.

So, what other sports would you suggest I take up, as I clearly lack the talent for this one?

38D

Exactly. Every single fast driver that I respect has had at least one "big one". Larry makes the list (but if I beat you at the Glen, you're off it )


Man, I know that feeling. That instant when you realize you're going over is just sickening. Just remember, "If you're going in hard, thumbs in!"


[QUOTE=leif997Most DE instructors, IMHO, are guys and gals who, through friendships formed with regional instructors gain a rapid (too rapid) progression through the "color ranks" of PCA driving levels and are thus ultimately promted to being an unskilled and unknowledged "instructor". I use this term loosely. Pointing out the driving line does not an instructor make.[/QUOTE]

100% agree. I find that the vast majority of instrcutors are really only qualified to teach beginning students. I actually would like to see a tiered system, with Instructor, Senior Instrucotr and Master Instructor ranks (and unlike todays system which basically rewards tenure, would be be based on driving and teaching skill). Anyway, I can probably think of a dozen or more instructors that tool around at the Glen do 2:28s, which really makes me question the whole process.

SundayDriver

Exactly! A new driver gets some tire noise and thinks that is the limit. Then they go faster and get that first sensation of slip and they know that is the limit. Then someone in a similar car blows by them and the sense that maybe there is more so they get more slip. And again it happens then they start to wonder where the REAL limit is. Only when you exceed the limit do you really know where it was.