ed devinney

I don't doubt Tinman knows how to build a cage, just wish he would actually share knowledge instead of just posting a couple of inscrutable replies in a row.

I'm not an engineer but I see a number of things in John's cage that do look form-over-functionish. I'd like to know the pros and cons here. The only way that happens is when two people discuss. John's trying - Tinman, can you please try too?

RedlineMan

SH;

No one has ever even approached saying he does not have the skills. It has never been about him... as it has been substantively about ME in return. Although... how would we know he has any skills? Nobody here knows him, or you for that matter. Saying someone has their chops is only as good as your ability to know what YOU are talking about. Everything has levels. I'm sure he builds a good cage, but I'd wager he falls somewhere second to FABCAR... for instance. Second to at least them, I'd wager.

Now that you have come to his defense, and since you own some of his work, perhaps you can do what he seems loathe to, and post some pics of his work so everyone can judge for themselves what his skill level is?

By the way, passing tech is no great feat. A lot of crap gets through tech. A good tech inspector has to be at least as talented as the fabricator's work he is assessing. Unfortunately, that is often not the case... on either end.

sh944s

John,

I am NCR DE chair and have been an instructor for NCR region for many years. You and I have met maybe once or twice over the years and we have some common friends in Zone One.

Please don't confuse my reasons for jumping in here. My creditbiity is not the dicussion subject so let's tone it down a little and stop bearing your teeth. I am not defending anyone simply adding a data point. My motive was to help out a friend when his credibilty came under attack; nothing personal to anyone on the list but I felt that maybe folks doubted that Tinman was for real.

Tinman has several built several cages in cars running in PCA and SCCA (regional runner up in ITE) and if you use the rules and subsequent tech inspections as the criteria to judge whether a cage is "strong" than he has passed the test. He has spent the last 20 yrs running a fabrication business, teaching welding and just plain screwing around with cars from Porsche and mud buggies to Nascar Bucsh cars. He has bent a few tubes over the years so I trust his judgement.

As with any engineering problem (and I am not an engineer but play one on TV) I have seen there are several ways to solve any problem. If I were to give the 20 engineers the same problem and told them to come back in two days with a solution, I bet everyone of them would come up with a different way to solve the problem; each having some good points and some bad points.

Racing sactioning bodies have decided to take this creativity out to the equation and adopt a standard way of doing things in order to reduce or control variables. Such is the case with cages. Years of real world data colllect by looking at crashed cars have led them to trusted solutions. I think Tinman is saying that if you want to look at this body of knowledge and build a bland, "to the book cage", you can't go wrong.

It is clear you are a talented fabricator as well. Your building a cool looking cage and of your own admission a bit unorthodox. Your bumping into the body of knowledge I mentioned above and it has (I bet) made you think through some of your ideas. Not a bad thing when it comes to safety.....

camber799

I prefer to BE safe.

Larry Herman

Yeah, I'd like to know who you are as well Tinman. Too many people sit back in anonymity and take potshots at everyone else. If you are going to criticize someone, post your name so we can all see who you are and know what you've done. We all know who the standup guys are around here.

camber799

Some of those "rib" crusher seats have more engineering and testing built into them than the high-end fiberglass and carbon fiber shells. ISP for example, makes a so-called "rib crusher" seat has been sled tested in excess of fifty times. None of the shell makers even talk about sled testing.

Good rib crusher seats will contain your hips and shoulders. These are "hard" spots on your body that can absorb a lot of energy. The "rib crushers", if properly designed, are designed to deform quicker and easier than the hip and shoulder portions of the seat. This gives your body a chance to decelerate without turning your insides into mush and, ideally, without breaking ribs. Without it the mid-section of your upper torso would travel considerably more distance than your hips and shoulders.

The helmet wings are great on those ISP seats. They really have put a lot of thought into the entire seat. There are others out there that make excellent seats. I speak of ISP because I am more familiar with them.

Mark in Baltimore

Rainy afternoon here paying bills. I've passed by this thread until today, wondering why it had so many posts. I don't know too much about cage fabrication and have no bias whatsoever but echo the sentiments of Larry and wonder if operating under the self-perceived safe veil of anonymity is the best tactic to persuade minds and change opinions.

RedlineMan

SH944S;

No need for defense. You are not "on trial" here, and your motivations were clear. I must commend you, Sir. You have spoken very elegantly, and carved right to the essence of what is going on here. With one exception I agree with you completely.

That one exception would be that Tinman's credibility is in question. We cannot judge his credibility when it comes to fabrication because up to this point he has for some reason kept his cards hidden. Very peculiar behavior for any craftsman, especially for one who claims to have it going on.

While on the face of things, it may seem that he is on trial, the responsibility for that is in reality his alone. He has made some very strong and not so subtley sarcastic comments about my work. That's fine. There are a lot of people that talk a lot. I'm used to it. By and large I can tune it out.... and did, as he noted. Unfortunately, he has been so persistent, and yet so maddeningly non-specific and aimless as to what he finds lacking in it, that we must in the end ask him to Walk the Walk... or take a hike. Because of all of this, he then has not made clear and concise arguments for why he holds the views he does.

Simply stating that my work does not follow convention - besides being painfully obvious - says absolutely nothing about its ultimate effectiveness, or its "legality."

Regarding Tinman, we all are left to speculate, and in this case it is hard not to see him as just another in a long line of e-bullies with no real-life amunition. No one has been rude to HIM. No one is being sarcastic... well... I have tried REALLY hard.

The world that is encompassed in this thread is eager to hear him state a point of contention, then back that contention up with solid, logical, rational discourse. THAT is not an attack. It is more a plea. Since you have demonstrated your gift for clear and concise discourse, perhaps you could become his mouthpiece and give us the information that he seems unwilling or unable to?

sh944s

John,

Thanks for the kind comments. On Tinman's credibility, we shall continue to disagree and I am certainly Ok with that. This is a disccusion formum of opinion and as such we can agree to disagree. I am only comfortable offering a data point since I am not qualifed to judge what correct cage construction should be. I only know that what I have passes tech.


Tinman will have to decide whether or not to show pictures of his work. But knowing him for as long as I have...don't wait too long...he does things his own way.

38D

I think John was not saying that Tinman was not credible, but that simply we do not know. He has not posted his name, his shop's name, or any pictures of his work. Half the people on this list have met John at the track, so he is a known commodity...Tinman is not.

I have no idea if Tinman's work is any good, but I do know that he has provided zero details on what is wrong with John's cage other than it is "unsafe". Unless he is the godfather of cage building, it is hard to take his word at face value without any facts.

RedlineMan

Colin is Correct!

Tinman's credibility is indeed in question, but only based on his assertions here, and relative to this thread and forum. As with any group - particularly in a current as swift and deep as this - due respect is a given, but credibility is earned, not defaulted to. That is only meaningful to the extent that he may find it important. In the larger sense, it matters very little.

And so, we shall see.

tinman944

To all of you,
It really has nothing to do with the work I do.
It has nothing to do with me posting pictures of the work I do.
I am not looking for credibility from anyone. I turn a way more work a week than I care to think about.
As John says I must just build plain old boring stuff. he may be right.
Everyone needs to back up 9 pages and see how this all started.
John started out by asking,what we all thought of his new idea of building a cage. So stupid me chimes in and sat that what he is doing is not safe. That is all
I can even write it in big letters
JOHNS CAGE IS NOT SAFE. JOHNS CAGE WILL NOT PASS TECH FOR ANY SANCTION OF RACING. AND THE PART THAT REALLY GETS ME IS IT IS NOT EVEN A HALF A MILLION TIMES STRONGER THAN A BOLT IN CAGE MADE BY ANYONE.
Am I wrong here John ?????

That is all this whole post is about.
John trying something new.
John I have done it a hundred times. I have piles of bent up tubing that I have cut out.
But I have to say every cage I have out there. I would sit in myself .
So Who ever agrees that johns cage is safe keep praising him. I hope like hell he never has to test the thing out.
As for me,
Bob Pickul
Owner of JSP Fabrications,
Member of PCA for 10 years. NCR ( tech chair, tech line leader for 6-7 years, co DE chair, DE chair)
I have been a member of Rennlist since 2001.
I have been a metal fabricator for 25 years.
I have worked on and built 3000 hp mud drag truck to go-carts. believe me we have put them all to the test.
And No I am not posting pictures.

38D

Can you be more specific? Which parts of the cage will not pass say for PCA club racing?

Larry Herman

Well then, Bob, let me be the first to say that your input, based upon your experience, is quite valuable here. On the things that I feel knowledgeable about, based on 30+ years of experience, like driving and car setup, I try and explain in detail when ever I disagree with someone else. That way everyone can learn and benefit, even if it turns out that I am the one who is wrong. Many of the topics on this forum can be quite subjective, others are not. That still doesn't mean that what is apparent to an experienced fabricator like you, is obvious to me.

Maybe you are not aware, but this forum has a history of self-proclaimed experts, sorely lacking in experience, commenting with bold authority. Just for fun, search for threads involving ColorChange. All anybody wants here is accurate information, or good, thought out, hopefully tested input to the topic. Looking forward to that from you.

Larry

Cory M

I think you misunderstood my comment about "rib crusher" seats to mean all aluminum racing seats. The seats I'm talking about wrap around the thighs and ribs, but offer NO wraparound support for the shoulders or head. And the head rest is generally a flat sheet of aluminum that gets bent up and flimsy in no time. You must be talking about the full containment aluminum seats (like they use in Nasacar) which I agree are great seats with a lot of engineering behind them.