Jon Moeller

I think what tinman is trying to say is that John's design is straying quite a ways from function, and heading purely towards form. If John is looking to create art in his car, he's doing a pretty good job. If he is looking at creating a cage that protects it's occupants effectively and efficiently, he's not quite cutting it.

The first thing that strikes me about the door bars is the amount of filler. Bondo is great for making body work look good, but I don't want it on my rollcage. I'd rather be able to see the quality of the welds. I don't want a rollcage that looks pretty, I want a rollcage that saves my *** when I run out of talent, or some guy loses control and decides to use my car as a substitute for a tirewall. The curved bars serve absolutely no functional purpose.

-Jon

tinman944

I can see someone is paying attention.
Maybe there are some NOPI evens over in Johns area. I am sure he can take one of ther trophies home

RedlineMan

Are you the Pot or the Kettle?

I think you have it a bit backwards, mate. I've simply posted some pics and discussion for entertainment, and been telling folks why I've done what I've done. You have been making a lot of strong (and not so vaguely sarcastic) assertions about how YOU, in effect, are the one that knows a lot. That may indeed be the case, but until anyone actually sees something you have done, and hears a coherent exlanation of why, and why it is better, it is all hot air and spiraling down to mere stone throwing.

I take that back. You made one good point about diagonals; that lowering the left side terminus lowers it in the field of view. Very good point. Since I do not use that generic style diagonal, it had not occured to me. I built mine the way I did because of where my hoop is, and because I think the "usual" way of doing it is ugly. Once again, if both were modeled, and the differences compared, I'm betting you would not see enough difference to get excited about.

Given my freely admitted deferment to visual esthetics in some areas (the bondo being your favorite), you have not made one clear or substantive addition to this thread yet. You have merely taken pot shots. For starters, give us the benefit of your expertise, in a more detailed fashion, and tell us exactly what type of door bar you see as being most effective?

Please don't back away from what you have begun here. As Mike said, inquiring minds want to learn.

RedlineMan

Hey Jon;

Your personal feelings about esthetics are your own, and you are welcome to them, just as I am mine. But, let me tell you why your assertions about the door bar are flat dead wrong.

Let's say that there was just the top tube there with no other tie-in but at its ends. Let's say that something hit that tube alone. What would happen? Since that tube is in effect the longest leg of a triangle, and it is in strong tension between the sill tube (which is welded to the entire length of the rocker both inside and out), and also attached to the main hoop (which is equally integrated into the chassis), you would in effect have to pull the entire rocker panel and cowl assembly up, and the door pillar and quarter panel forward.

The curved pieces that you seem to think are merely eye candy are tieing the entire length of the door bar into the entire length of the sill tube... essentially the entire side of the car. If only the door bar were hit, You'd be trying to take everything else in the side of the car with it.

Spreading load over a wide area is NEVER bad when you are trying to counter any type of force. Agreed?

tinman944

As far as you know John I may have never even built a cage.
lets start out at the begining.
You build your cage that starts with a foundation. your door sill bar.Correct?

TD in DC

...

tinman944

As I said this morning I do not care what you do to your car.
I do care that others are not missled if they want to take on a project of there own.
If you want to be different fine with me.
Dont tell anyone that what you are doing is stronger and safer than anything else out there.
I have the feeling you are looked up to on this list.
Lead them in the right direction.

tinman944

TD in Dc,
Dont eat that popcorn to fast I think we are going to be here a while.
Damn I may go and get some of that for myself.

moliver

Keep it constructive guys.....

Balancing form and function is what Jon is trying to get.

He has said he isn't and engineer and values our opinions.

Tinman talks tough but just comments without any solutions that he is willing to share.

Its a great discussion don't ruin it.

tinman944

moliver,
Would you have this cage put in your car?

tinman944

Lets back up to the beginning
I have read these pages over and over.
What are you building here John.
It starts out you are going to put in a new cage. damn that got my attention.
Actually when I saw the sawzall thing that really got to me ,as on saturday I got mine out and cut another 30 lbs out of my 83 NA 944 .
So I read that you scrap you old cage and are going to install a new one. very cool.
Now you have to remember I like this cage building stuff.
I like the feeling of going as fast as I can in a fully caged car. I value my life maybe a little more than it is worth.
So I see in the first photos where you get the main hoop in there nice and tight. personally I have never spent the time to do it but if you have a lot of time I guess it looks pretty good.
The first thing I see is there is no cross brace or horizontal bar. In my opinion very important bars. and in every sanction of racing also as usually when you get a rule book and get to the cage part they always start with theses three bars.
That and every cage I have had inspected for some reason those tech guys check them first.
anyway so if I read on to Johns post he is not going to run those bars as he feels the bar he has hooked to the rear legs are good enough.
Then We go on to how to make the vision out the back better. Now I read it as this is how John is going to make up for not installing the bars that are very important.
Then he puts one cross bar in that is set too far towards the center of the car.
I will explain to you why that is wrong. If the car was to be hit in the side there is no support.
Now I see why john did not put in the cross bar so I subject that he move the main hoop back in the car. Nope not going to do that as he likes it to be hidden and some other crap.With that remark I would have to wonder if he chooses not to wear a helmet because it messes up his hair.
This is safety we are talking about...RIGHT. Or has this now turned into a show car.
If it is a show car than I have wasted a whole day on this site.

tinman944

ooops I edited out something in the middle
Back to all the bars John want to install in the back.
It looks like something that you would put in a rally car with a few bars missing. Must be those rally guys dont need to know who is coming.
So I spend some time laying out as close as I can the rear section of the car to see if this idea will work. Hey who knows. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut some days.
And no it really does not work at all. Or for what I think John is after.
So now if everyone that cares go to the photo where John installs the cross bar.
It is set too far toward the center of the car.
Now place a body in that gap . This is where that very important horizontal bar comes into play.
If the car is in a side impact your body will be the only thing there to absorb the energy as the main hoop is pushed towards the center till the cross bar can absorb the energy. sad to say you will be in tough shape when that happens.
I have stressed that this cage is not safe.
As I said already I do not care what you do to your car.
I do care that others are not missled if they want to take on a project of there own.
If you want to be different fine with me.
Dont tell anyone that what you are doing is stronger and safer than anything else out there.
I have the feeling you are looked up to on this list.
Lead them in the right direction.

RedlineMan

Geeeeez...

And... you were doing so well for a slim moment there...

This first lucid offering is where I'll start. If the client will pay the time it takes to make one, I like to start a cage with a sill tube that picks up ALL the attachment points.

tinman944

Ok but you missed the sill bar on this car.

tinman944

I am haveing a hard time see what this sill bar does. You are adding to the door sill that is already really strong. I mean really strong. I have check mine with and dial indicator and lifted the car on every corner and there is no movement.
Let me ask you this.
Are all the cages you build asembled in the same fashion as this one.
I have never sean a cage built where you fit a bar then weld it in solid. then go to the next part and do the same. I also notice you have no doors on the car.
You have welded the whole lenghth of the door sill and the b pillar. Are you sure the doors will even close????
And If you look real close I can see where you have bondoed up the B pillar on the passengers side of the car and there are no door bars welded to it yet... sounds like a lot of work to me. to grind it all off and reapply again. I do understand it is your own car.
But I now understand that you may be using these photos to drum up business.