Putnam Park Recap And PSM/ABS Disconnection
10-10-2005, 02:22 PM
#166
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by ColorChange
Well, I have just gotten back from Road America where I put in sub 2:30 laps on street tires. I don't care what any of you say, any sub 2:30 time in a street legal car is NOT SLOW
If you post the video of your best lap, I can compare segment times with DrJupeman's video from the race this year. That should be a fairly absolute comparison of how you are doing speed wise.
10-10-2005, 02:27 PM
#167
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SRFs dont have slicks. No comment on my proven safety record of SRFs, huh?
Next Excuse?
Nice that you bend your safety value system to go 170 on the straights where a minor problem will kill you, but you cant meet the challenge as described here. Does your husband know you went 170 at RA in a car without proper safety gear?
Next Excuse?
Nice that you bend your safety value system to go 170 on the straights where a minor problem will kill you, but you cant meet the challenge as described here. Does your husband know you went 170 at RA in a car without proper safety gear?
10-10-2005, 02:27 PM
#168
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Originally Posted by ColorChange
Mitch:
In the past you have been decent also so I will respond to you.
I challenged Mike is his car, or my car preferably, on a very safe track, Putnam or Gingerman.
How is it that I am now not only obliged to accept an open wheel, open cockpit car on a much more dangerous track, but I’m a coward if I don’t. Please explain.
In the past you have been decent also so I will respond to you.
I challenged Mike is his car, or my car preferably, on a very safe track, Putnam or Gingerman.
How is it that I am now not only obliged to accept an open wheel, open cockpit car on a much more dangerous track, but I’m a coward if I don’t. Please explain.
10-10-2005, 02:36 PM
#169
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Originally Posted by ColorChange
I have no experience in open wheel and open cockpit cars so to try to push an unknown car on an unknown track is not “safe” IMO.
Originally Posted by ColorChange
I challenged Mike is his car, or my car preferably, on a very safe track, Putnam or Gingerman.
How is it that I am now not only obliged to accept an open wheel, open cockpit car on a much more dangerous track, but I’m a coward if I don’t. Please explain.
It's statements like this that are confusing everyone here. It seems that you think your safety is more important than Mike's safety, or your definition of safety is different than everyone elses. Personally, I think Mike would be nuts to drive your car at speed, walls or no walls.
Just picture the extreme case at your "safe" track. In the event of a high speed off that rolled the car, the idea of being strapped into an upside down car with the roof crushed in (no roll cage), with fuel leaking around the car (no fuel cell) and the car still running (no cut off) waiting for a fire to start (no fire system) cause he went against he better judgement and used a street car for a race may have crossed his mind (or it should have).
W:W or not, you challenged him to a race. The least you could do is use a real race car.
EDIT: The reason not to use Mike's has been discussed before. Why risk his car to another driver in a grudge match. He could miss an entire season trying to rebuild it.
10-10-2005, 02:49 PM
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Tim, just admit that you had an error in judgement and appologize to Mike. Nobody here will judge you harshly if you admit that you were wrong.
I'll give you a little tip. Let's say for argument's sake that you are a better driver than Mike (and maybe you are but we will never know). The problem that you will have during the Comparo (a word I made up to describe a comparison between drivers that isn't quite a race) is that your adrenaline will be explosive and your heart will be in your throat and you won't be able to breath quite right. You will make mental errors. You will over cook every turn. It will keep getting worse as the day goes on because you will be playing catch-up with Mike's time and as you become more desperate you will get worse. I know this because only Mike has any experience being in the fight. It is a very different world when you are fighting to win as opposed to DE.
I'll give you a little tip. Let's say for argument's sake that you are a better driver than Mike (and maybe you are but we will never know). The problem that you will have during the Comparo (a word I made up to describe a comparison between drivers that isn't quite a race) is that your adrenaline will be explosive and your heart will be in your throat and you won't be able to breath quite right. You will make mental errors. You will over cook every turn. It will keep getting worse as the day goes on because you will be playing catch-up with Mike's time and as you become more desperate you will get worse. I know this because only Mike has any experience being in the fight. It is a very different world when you are fighting to win as opposed to DE.
10-10-2005, 03:29 PM
#171
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Jim:
A rental car with no safety equipment, not even a harness is obviously unacceptable. To rent a proper race car, will cost over $1,000. Who foots the bill, me? While I'm willing to blow $500 to have a whack at Mike, I'm not willing to blow over $1,500, it's just not worth it.
Colin:
You also have been reasonable. I'll post the video. It is difficult for me to compare cars. I was driving a 600+ hp, 3,400 lb car on street tires on a 45 degree track temp. Don Brescia drives a 600+ hp car but it only weighs 2,300 lb and he was on slicks. His time was 2:16 so we know my car could never be that fast. How does that compare to mine? Certainly he’s faster and I’m sure a much better driver, but I don’t know how to compare. My point wasn’t that my time was fast, it definitely isn’t. My only point is that it’s not slow. I do have data from Chris Cervelli in a 996 Cup Car. He is pretty fast (in anyone’s book I think) and he blows me away in a number of areas. He’s fast, I’m not.
SJanes:
IMO, it is safe (enough) to drive an unknown fully prepped race car on a known and safe track, thus the Gingerman or Putnam qualifiers. I see your points, but don’t think that going 120 mph at Gingerman is particularly unsafe, even in my car. I agree a race car is a better option, but it’s also much more expensive, and not worth it to me.
Mitch:
You never really answered my question. Mike’s only counter proposal that I know of was any Skip Barber racing school track. So I need to spend $4,000 for the school, get in an open wheel/open cockpit car, all at much more dangerous tracks than either Putnam or Gingerman, and I’m a coward if I don’t accept that. Please try to explain you coward accusation to me again as can’t see our point of view.
I feel no need to apologize. I challenged Mike. He declined (for reasons I find somewhat dubious, especially after supposedly accepting them months earlier), then he challenged me, I declined (for reasons I think are fully supported). I would still like to have a shot at Mike, but not under the conditions Mike offered, or you and many others are trying to impose.
One last thing, I never said I was a better driver than Mike. I just am not slow (as he accused me of) and was willing to risk $500 for the chance to beat him. Finally, I have been in many much more dangerous competitions that race car driving (ski jumping) and I have not weakened under those conditions. I wouldn’t expect to under these conditions either.
A rental car with no safety equipment, not even a harness is obviously unacceptable. To rent a proper race car, will cost over $1,000. Who foots the bill, me? While I'm willing to blow $500 to have a whack at Mike, I'm not willing to blow over $1,500, it's just not worth it.
Colin:
You also have been reasonable. I'll post the video. It is difficult for me to compare cars. I was driving a 600+ hp, 3,400 lb car on street tires on a 45 degree track temp. Don Brescia drives a 600+ hp car but it only weighs 2,300 lb and he was on slicks. His time was 2:16 so we know my car could never be that fast. How does that compare to mine? Certainly he’s faster and I’m sure a much better driver, but I don’t know how to compare. My point wasn’t that my time was fast, it definitely isn’t. My only point is that it’s not slow. I do have data from Chris Cervelli in a 996 Cup Car. He is pretty fast (in anyone’s book I think) and he blows me away in a number of areas. He’s fast, I’m not.
SJanes:
IMO, it is safe (enough) to drive an unknown fully prepped race car on a known and safe track, thus the Gingerman or Putnam qualifiers. I see your points, but don’t think that going 120 mph at Gingerman is particularly unsafe, even in my car. I agree a race car is a better option, but it’s also much more expensive, and not worth it to me.
Mitch:
You never really answered my question. Mike’s only counter proposal that I know of was any Skip Barber racing school track. So I need to spend $4,000 for the school, get in an open wheel/open cockpit car, all at much more dangerous tracks than either Putnam or Gingerman, and I’m a coward if I don’t accept that. Please try to explain you coward accusation to me again as can’t see our point of view.
I feel no need to apologize. I challenged Mike. He declined (for reasons I find somewhat dubious, especially after supposedly accepting them months earlier), then he challenged me, I declined (for reasons I think are fully supported). I would still like to have a shot at Mike, but not under the conditions Mike offered, or you and many others are trying to impose.
One last thing, I never said I was a better driver than Mike. I just am not slow (as he accused me of) and was willing to risk $500 for the chance to beat him. Finally, I have been in many much more dangerous competitions that race car driving (ski jumping) and I have not weakened under those conditions. I wouldn’t expect to under these conditions either.
10-10-2005, 04:24 PM
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CC, are you an alien? Do you have a brain?
Mike's counter was a Skip school or any other rental race prepared car at ANY FREAKIN TRACK YOU WANT YOU IDIOT!
You continued concern of safety is laughable as you continue to ignore those who make the best arguments against your stupid points.
Mike's counter was a Skip school or any other rental race prepared car at ANY FREAKIN TRACK YOU WANT YOU IDIOT!
You continued concern of safety is laughable as you continue to ignore those who make the best arguments against your stupid points.
10-10-2005, 04:48 PM
#173
Originally Posted by Z-man
Ok Todd, I'm calling you out. Your father was a hampster and your mother smelled of elderberries. And you can't drive for squat, you snivelling little yellow belly. Let's race.
Done. Now we can both get to business. Um, how do you guys suggest Todd and I approach our respecdtive wives about signing up for the required, aforementioned Skip Barber school?
Disclaimer: Please note that when I 'challenged' Todd I had my tongue firmly planted in my cheek, though I wouldn't mind the wifey springing for Skippy school.
Done. Now we can both get to business. Um, how do you guys suggest Todd and I approach our respecdtive wives about signing up for the required, aforementioned Skip Barber school?
Disclaimer: Please note that when I 'challenged' Todd I had my tongue firmly planted in my cheek, though I wouldn't mind the wifey springing for Skippy school.
That disclaimer sounds remarkably like weasel words to me! I just checked the skippy schedule and the good dates are full, but lets take this offline so we don't derail this trainwreck . . .
10-10-2005, 05:38 PM
#175
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TD
TD, sorry to miss your post the first time around, you have been largely reasonable but please address the questions I ask in my reply.
I called out Mike with very specific challenge.
The restriction to 2 extremely safe tracks is irrefutable, and 2 cars, his and mine. I am comfortable in mine or his on those tracks. A Skippy car (open wheel, open cockpit car), even on those tracks, not the more dangerous tracks they run on, no. A rental car on those tracks, no. A fully prepped race car on either of those tracks, yes, but I don’t feel like paying for it.
Because I made a $500 challenge that I thought was more than fair (his car, his selection of two tracks) means I have to now accept any car, on any track, at any cost? This does not make sense. Please explain your view.
IMO, the biggest risk at RA is from mechanical failure at high speed. I had new tires, new rotors, new pads, new fluid, and a recently checked out car. I didn’t push it there until I was comfortable with my set-up changes (softened rear bar) and the car felt good. Did I crank it to 165 every lap? Hell no. I ran a number of laps with a mental governor at 120 mph. My safety thought process was one of exposure at that point. If I don’t do it often, I lessen the already low chance of a catastrophic mechanical failure. That is the very same reason I may not be back there often (at least with this car), as much fun as it was, it’s a major risk any time you crank it up that fast.
Do you have to accept my admittedly slightly twisted safety logic? No, but I don’t think you can say my reasoning is terribly wrong either.
Where did I say my time was fast? Those are the type of comments that really tick me off. I said my time was not slow, in capital letters now less. My time was not fast! My car is probably capable of 15 seconds faster, 10 for sure as it was set up. Does that make me fast? No, not IMO. Does it make me slow? No, not IMO.
Finally, I said I wasn’t pushing in some corners, for safety reasons. I was pushing damn hard in most, as the video and data will show. This was my first time at the track so I tried to drive appropriately.
Doug:
Helpful suggestion, but no thanks.
TD, sorry to miss your post the first time around, you have been largely reasonable but please address the questions I ask in my reply.
I called out Mike with very specific challenge.
Originally Posted by ColorChange
I’ve got $500 that says I can put down a faster lap in your car at Gingerman or Putnam than you can.
Because I made a $500 challenge that I thought was more than fair (his car, his selection of two tracks) means I have to now accept any car, on any track, at any cost? This does not make sense. Please explain your view.
IMO, the biggest risk at RA is from mechanical failure at high speed. I had new tires, new rotors, new pads, new fluid, and a recently checked out car. I didn’t push it there until I was comfortable with my set-up changes (softened rear bar) and the car felt good. Did I crank it to 165 every lap? Hell no. I ran a number of laps with a mental governor at 120 mph. My safety thought process was one of exposure at that point. If I don’t do it often, I lessen the already low chance of a catastrophic mechanical failure. That is the very same reason I may not be back there often (at least with this car), as much fun as it was, it’s a major risk any time you crank it up that fast.
Do you have to accept my admittedly slightly twisted safety logic? No, but I don’t think you can say my reasoning is terribly wrong either.
Where did I say my time was fast? Those are the type of comments that really tick me off. I said my time was not slow, in capital letters now less. My time was not fast! My car is probably capable of 15 seconds faster, 10 for sure as it was set up. Does that make me fast? No, not IMO. Does it make me slow? No, not IMO.
Finally, I said I wasn’t pushing in some corners, for safety reasons. I was pushing damn hard in most, as the video and data will show. This was my first time at the track so I tried to drive appropriately.
Doug:
Helpful suggestion, but no thanks.
10-10-2005, 06:11 PM
#176
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Originally Posted by ColorChange
Jim:
To rent a proper race car, will cost over $1,000. Who foots the bill, me? While I'm willing to blow $500 to have a whack at Mike, I'm not willing to blow over $1,500, it's just not worth it.
To rent a proper race car, will cost over $1,000. Who foots the bill, me? While I'm willing to blow $500 to have a whack at Mike, I'm not willing to blow over $1,500, it's just not worth it.
So Tim, if the cost to you is the same $200 (+ maybe your bet), what's the excuse?
BTW, I think everyone here, except of course you, understands why Mike is reluctant to risk the integrity of his car in your hands. Can you guarantee you won't crunch it?
10-10-2005, 06:29 PM
#178
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Dan, I didn't intend to respond to your post but since it is so reasonable, I will. Mike should not be forced to pay anything for my challenge. If he chooses to, that would be nice, but no way is he obliged. If I challenge him, it should cost him nothing but the time to show up and I hoped to match that with a Porsche DE/race weekend. Secondly, even $700, plus a potential loss $500 is $1,200 out of my pocket. More than I can justify to try to prove a point. If the total cost to me is around $700 (what I was willing to wager in the beginning), and meets the car and track conditions, I'm in.
Finally, once it was explained to me I understand (but don't agree) with Mike thinking my driving is so bad that I will crash it even at Gingerman or Putnam, I accept with his declining my use of his car, even if I am willing to pay for it plus $2,500 for annoyance. I have a much harder time accepting his declining the use of my car since it poses no financial concern to him (and I don't think he'll ball my car up at those tracks), especially since it drives quite nicely now.
Finally, once it was explained to me I understand (but don't agree) with Mike thinking my driving is so bad that I will crash it even at Gingerman or Putnam, I accept with his declining my use of his car, even if I am willing to pay for it plus $2,500 for annoyance. I have a much harder time accepting his declining the use of my car since it poses no financial concern to him (and I don't think he'll ball my car up at those tracks), especially since it drives quite nicely now.
10-10-2005, 08:57 PM
#179
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The End
Drivers challenge me all the time to see who is faster.
They fill the grid with me every race weekend.
Some I beat. And some spank my ***.
Then the results are posted on the PCA and NASA websites for all to see.
No matter where I have finished, DFL, mid-pack, or first, what matters most to me is how I performed versus the potential of my car.
He "called me out".
I said sure -- Skip Barber or rental SRFs. At the Track of HIS choice.
Of course Tim doesn't want to accept the terms.
They're fair.
There's no room for excuses.
And Skip cars and Spec Racer Fords are likely too much a test of true driving ability.
But in this case, I don't think I have performed very well against my potential.
I'm embarrassed I allowed myself to stoop to his level and participate in his nonsense.
No doubt he will continue to rail and call me a coward.
No matter.
I'm through with this endless foolishness.
I leave it to anyone willing to wade through all the bs to decide who is of low character, who is of high character, and who is a coward.
They fill the grid with me every race weekend.
Some I beat. And some spank my ***.
Then the results are posted on the PCA and NASA websites for all to see.
No matter where I have finished, DFL, mid-pack, or first, what matters most to me is how I performed versus the potential of my car.
He "called me out".
I said sure -- Skip Barber or rental SRFs. At the Track of HIS choice.
Of course Tim doesn't want to accept the terms.
They're fair.
There's no room for excuses.
And Skip cars and Spec Racer Fords are likely too much a test of true driving ability.
But in this case, I don't think I have performed very well against my potential.
I'm embarrassed I allowed myself to stoop to his level and participate in his nonsense.
No doubt he will continue to rail and call me a coward.
No matter.
I'm through with this endless foolishness.
I leave it to anyone willing to wade through all the bs to decide who is of low character, who is of high character, and who is a coward.
10-11-2005, 09:20 AM
#180
Originally Posted by ColorChange
TD
TD, sorry to miss your post the first time around, you have been largely reasonable but please address the questions I ask in my reply.
I called out Mike with very specific challenge.
The restriction to 2 extremely safe tracks is irrefutable, and 2 cars, his and mine. I am comfortable in mine or his on those tracks. A Skippy car (open wheel, open cockpit car), even on those tracks, not the more dangerous tracks they run on, no. A rental car on those tracks, no. A fully prepped race car on either of those tracks, yes, but I don’t feel like paying for it.
Because I made a $500 challenge that I thought was more than fair (his car, his selection of two tracks) means I have to now accept any car, on any track, at any cost? This does not make sense. Please explain your view.
IMO, the biggest risk at RA is from mechanical failure at high speed. I had new tires, new rotors, new pads, new fluid, and a recently checked out car. I didn’t push it there until I was comfortable with my set-up changes (softened rear bar) and the car felt good. Did I crank it to 165 every lap? Hell no. I ran a number of laps with a mental governor at 120 mph. My safety thought process was one of exposure at that point. If I don’t do it often, I lessen the already low chance of a catastrophic mechanical failure. That is the very same reason I may not be back there often (at least with this car), as much fun as it was, it’s a major risk any time you crank it up that fast.
Do you have to accept my admittedly slightly twisted safety logic? No, but I don’t think you can say my reasoning is terribly wrong either.
Where did I say my time was fast? Those are the type of comments that really tick me off. I said my time was not slow, in capital letters now less. My time was not fast! My car is probably capable of 15 seconds faster, 10 for sure as it was set up. Does that make me fast? No, not IMO. Does it make me slow? No, not IMO.
Finally, I said I wasn’t pushing in some corners, for safety reasons. I was pushing damn hard in most, as the video and data will show. This was my first time at the track so I tried to drive appropriately.
Doug:
Helpful suggestion, but no thanks.
TD, sorry to miss your post the first time around, you have been largely reasonable but please address the questions I ask in my reply.
I called out Mike with very specific challenge.
The restriction to 2 extremely safe tracks is irrefutable, and 2 cars, his and mine. I am comfortable in mine or his on those tracks. A Skippy car (open wheel, open cockpit car), even on those tracks, not the more dangerous tracks they run on, no. A rental car on those tracks, no. A fully prepped race car on either of those tracks, yes, but I don’t feel like paying for it.
Because I made a $500 challenge that I thought was more than fair (his car, his selection of two tracks) means I have to now accept any car, on any track, at any cost? This does not make sense. Please explain your view.
IMO, the biggest risk at RA is from mechanical failure at high speed. I had new tires, new rotors, new pads, new fluid, and a recently checked out car. I didn’t push it there until I was comfortable with my set-up changes (softened rear bar) and the car felt good. Did I crank it to 165 every lap? Hell no. I ran a number of laps with a mental governor at 120 mph. My safety thought process was one of exposure at that point. If I don’t do it often, I lessen the already low chance of a catastrophic mechanical failure. That is the very same reason I may not be back there often (at least with this car), as much fun as it was, it’s a major risk any time you crank it up that fast.
Do you have to accept my admittedly slightly twisted safety logic? No, but I don’t think you can say my reasoning is terribly wrong either.
Where did I say my time was fast? Those are the type of comments that really tick me off. I said my time was not slow, in capital letters now less. My time was not fast! My car is probably capable of 15 seconds faster, 10 for sure as it was set up. Does that make me fast? No, not IMO. Does it make me slow? No, not IMO.
Finally, I said I wasn’t pushing in some corners, for safety reasons. I was pushing damn hard in most, as the video and data will show. This was my first time at the track so I tried to drive appropriately.
Doug:
Helpful suggestion, but no thanks.
I am willing to give anyone the benefit of the doubt, and I am even willing to reconsider my opinion of people after I have reached some preliminary judgment about them. I honestly wonder whether you intend your posts to come across the way they do.
Perhaps the issue you are having here is partly a communication problem. The offer you posted above sounds very different from the offer I understood from various of your posts. Perhaps in the heat of the moment you didn't communicate the reasoning behind your offer fully, or in a manner that was easy to understand.
Also, you called Tim out so forcefully, and so rudely, that it seems incomprehensible that you would not accept fair counter-terms. The force and rudeness of your challenge typically convey, well, passion, and it seems difficult for most to understand why if you were truly passionate and serious about your challenge that you would refuse reasonable counter-proposals. When you call someone out so forcefully, and then refuse to accept seemingly reasonable counter-offers, it tends to annoy people. THAT was my point to you, not that you should or should not accept any particular offer. Go back and reread my post.
I personally think that a challenge made in anger is senseless. If you had made it jokingly and you planned to have a good natured dual with Mike, it could have been really funny. If you are serious, and your posts make it sound like you are, you probably shouldn't challenge someone so forcefully if you have such specific limitations on the terms of the challenge. Otherwise, you get the sort of reaction you see here.
In the end, I am not your Dad, and I don't really care what you and Mike do. I just want to have a good time, make some more friends at the track, and always have someone who is willing to buy me a beer (or wine, or liquor, or cigar) when I visit a new track/town. Although I am as competitive as the next guy (and cannot stand the thought of anyone else being better than I am at anything), I care more about enjoying myself, because life is too short. In the end, what do I care whether someone else thinks I am slow, so long as I am enjoying myself?
Maybe an apology to Mike wouldn't be a bad idea. Who knows, you might have a good laugh about it all in the end.
TD
P.S. You and I definitely do not assess risks the same way . . . If you really care about safety, follow my lead and buy a low HP dedicated track car. This should be safer and you can save some cash. Your speeds and times may not impress anyone, at least at first, but you will be having a good time, and that is all that really counts.