George from MD

I'm in the Potomac region too. One of the best instructors I've ever met drives and regularly tracks a Ruf (but owns a Porsche too and is a PCA member). If our region went absolutely strictly by the rules (it doesn't) he would not be allowed to drive it and we might lose a tremendous asset- and one of our chief instructors. So for me the Porsche only rule is pushing it- so long as the individual is a Porsche owning PCA member I would think their participation is welcome no matter what they show up in (providing it passes a safety/tech inspection and is not considered a hazard due to its size or weight).

Which brings up another question and a whole 'nother issue- Cayennes. Our region (justifiably in my view) doesn't allow them. I personally see them as a hazard due to their size and weight. But they are, after all, a "Porsche". Should they be in? While I personally would rather see ten Minis out there we are a Porsche club, no?

I've really enjoyed seeing/driving/experiencing other types of cars on the track and hope that all regions would first consider and require a PCA Membership (and the consequent ownership of a Porsche) rather the vehicle an individual brings to the track on any given day.

Geo

Oh, I don't know... If I were a PCA member who wanted to run my non-P-car and was told no over a non-member with a P-car I'd be on the phone to the national office in a heartbeat. That to me is wrong. It's a club by and for the members first and foremost.

I'm sorry, but don't pee in my ear and tell me it's raining. It is snobbery. You are saying "they are not like 'us'." That's snobbery. I can buy a lot of the reasons, but not this one. It's also a missed opportunity to teach others as well. Heck, you don't know who may suddenly go out and buy a Porsche.

onasled

OK, OK.... my thread here. Come to order..
Don't want this to get too off topic, though it's been very stimulating.

I think most of us can agree that all PCA members come first. I would not expect the PCA, nor the Audi, BWMCCA, etc, allow non registered members to participate. This was not the intent of my original post.

The question simply remains, should a PCA member be put at the bottom of the list, or in fact not be permitted on the list to participate in a DE event IF they choose to drive their non-Pcar?

I hear some saying that this is the way it should be, but have not really heard any strong argument for why..

sjanes

Ah, cause nobody wants to be passed by a Mini?

ceboyd

Well, some venue's fill up so fast that they give preference to region PCA members first and then other PCA members and then anyone else (if space is left)

..Events at Putnam seem to be like this a lot...

..so one of these day's we'll have to watch and register early and/or get on the wait list early..

..someday we will make it to Putnam....

I can understand giving preference to your own region members for an event planned by your own region... and can totally understand that region members getting preference regardless of if they bring a P-car or non -pcar.... after all, it is their own region..

onasled

BrokeAss

No, PCA MEMBERS who choose not to drive their Porsche at a DE shouldn't be penalized. They're "family" and would be welcomed at our events.

....but if it's his FIRST DE and he chooses to leave his Boxster home and bring his modified twin-turbo Supra he would be genly recommend to stay home!

BrokeAss

This thread makes me think of that movie "Pirates of the Caribbean".
Captain Barbosa says, "First, your return to shore was not part of our negotiations nor our agreement, so I must do nothin'. And secondly, you must be a pirate for the Pirate's Code to apply, and you're not. And thirdly, the Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules."

mitch236

The preferential list should be:
1 -PCA members driving Porsches
2 -PCA members driving non-Porsches
3 -non PCA members driving Porsches (although they should join)
4 -non PCA members driving non- Porsches

I don't think this is snobbery but who cares? The thought of a club means exclusivity. Want to be in the club, do what it takes to belong. I don't think any private organization should have to cater to any outside influence.

JCP911S

Geo... we let other cars run, and I have instructed may out of region non-P-car students so I'm fine with it.

However, if you were a Potomac Region member registering your P-Car and got bumped for a Potomac Region member who tracked his Ferrari, how would you feel? I'm just making the point that in practice all rules are arbitrary in some way and this rule is probably no more or less fair than any other rule.

Also, any DE program is about 50% driving technique and 50% attitude and PCA for one spends alot of effort teaching a culture that emphesises several key principles:

1) This is not racing... the goal is to develop driving skill, not going fast and passing alot of people

2) Be respectful of the other students... they are your friends not your competitors... give timely passing signals, and track space... when in doubt, safety should always be the first consideration

3) Listen to the instructors and do what they say. Period.

These principles are quite contrary to the underlying desires of most of the students (and instructors also), and really do require constant reinforcement to keep things in control.

In our region, nobody gets graduated to White until they have satisfied us that they understand and live buy these principles (or at least have enough repspect for them to consistently lie about it)... and I would say you could take any driver from any PCA region and be confident that they undersatood them too.

There are also alot of procedures about Tech, meetings, schedule, documentation, etc, etc that students must learn to make an event run smoothly, and this is also part of the learning process.

Personally I have had or seen several instances where non PCA drivers invited to our events were either totally clueless about these principles, oir even downright disrespectful. It is a small minority, most of the out-of club guys are great and understand the program, but it happens.

If I am DE Chair or Chief Instructor, why is it wrong to insist that any student admitted understand how PCA runs their events?

Alan Herod

Interesting discussion -- a few years ago, one of our members brought out two of his historic race cars -- I cannot remember which Porsche he brought out, it was either the 966 or a 917 and a Ferrari, early 70s prototype endurance racer. Most would have liked to see the Ferrari turn some laps -- but we have published rules. At a subsequent event he brought a 962 and a 917 to our event at VIR. I consider that it would have been snobbery if we had let him run the Ferrari (because it was historically significant) and then did not let someone else run their Volvo station wagon. We made the rules as Kurt and others have said to encourage member participation. If you do not have a current PCA membership you do not participate. Porsche Club is about Porsches. I instruct for other groups as well and from a personal perspective, I like to be out there with other marques; but, I feel that for us, Potomac, and the number of members and the length of the wait list, the restrictive rules make sense. I don't think I want to get in a debate about what a Ruff is.

To add to Mitch's comment - You can't enter our PCA sanctioned events without being a member and you can't be a member without a Porsche. Insurance is involved in this somewhere. In short that only leaves two conditions. Member driving a Porsche and Member driving a non-Porsche and we don't allow the latter.

If the member has another car that they would like to bring out, what type of car would we allow? Many of our members race, some in Porsches, some in little sports racers. Which of these cars would be ok to bring out if we allowed non Porsches?

Alan Herod

We do have another event which has three distinct exercise scenarios - Slalom exercise, Braking exercise, and wet skid pad. Members are encouraged to bring what they drive on the street. The afternoon consists of several lapping sessions. Last year one of the students brought out a Golf and proceeded to walk all over most of the other students. Porsche drivers would not give passing signals which became an opportunity for more education.

Also another off topic. Probably one of the potentially worst cars to instruct in may be a GT3 or 996 TT because in the hands of the wrong student the right pedal becomes digital on-off and the middle pedal only has two positions as well. Nothing will make me sick quicker.

George from MD

No debate???? Aww c'mon Alan!

A Ruf is a car. It looks exactly like a Porsche and we all know it IS a Porsche but (legally) it's not.

A Ruff is a dog. It doesn't look like a Porsche at all but most are faster than your typical 912.

No one minds being passed by a Ruf.

No one likes being passed by a Ruff.

kurt M

But getting passed by a 912 will pi$$ anyone off.

sjanes

Try a 930 when the student gets a pass signal when they are not on boost. They give it some throttle, nothin, a bit more and bang, we're outta there.

A quick "if you do that again, I'm going to get sick in this car" usually helps smooth out the inputs