M758

I am an instructor and completely agree with this statement.

Teaching a novice is the same in any car. The reason is you are not going to be pushing hard enough to get close to and unique limitations of the car.

I don't drive a boxster. Heck I have never driven one yet have alot of students in boxsters. I do just fine. I have driven a 911 once and yet have instructed many many 911 drivers. Again I do just fine. FWD drive cars I am not as good with. I will learn next time out with FWD student.

If I were trying to get a student to extract the last bits of speed from a car then knowing the type of car is handy, but it does not help much at novice level.

Hmm so who would instruct the supra turbo guy... I would take it him without any concerns. If he were a punk that would be a different story, but that would take me about 2-3 laps of right seat time to figure that one out.

BrokeAss

No, but it sure helps. The problem here is that you're only thinking about the situation from the students perspective, not the instructors position. ...and definitely not from the club or other drivers perspective.

There are *some* instructors that just aren't comfortable teaching in a vehicle dissimilar from theirs. There some guys that get motion sickness from guys who drive "roughly". There's a lot more that goes into planning an event and the student instructor matchups than you've given consideration to.

Then you've managed to completely misinterpret my message.
I've disallowed certain vehicles because of a combination of the HORSEPOWER, the complete lack of ANY prior performance driving experience and the lack of a an instructor in a similar car. How do you think that would have excluded you? I have had several minis' in our events and have much respect for their capabilities.

It's not hard to find an instructor with previous FWD experience.

It's a little harder to find an instructor with experience in a 500+ hp Supra. ...and harder to find an instructor crazy enough to hop into the car with him.

Now put on your event organizer hat for a moment. Is there some compelling reason why I should HAVE to admit him into a PCA event? There's plenty of other *all makes* driving schools out there. Can I fill my roster with plenty of other drivers - sure.

ceboyd

yes, last time I checked... PCA DE events are not 'race schools' but 'lapping' so the goal for a novice is to learn the line (when to turn in) and when to brake... 'all at a reasonable speed'...

I'm fortunate that my 1st instructor 8 years ago emphasized how speed was my last concern that day.... and because of 'not concentrating on trying to go faster' I was able to learn the line and went 'solo' by the end of the day... At the time, my instructor asked if I was 'fibbing' about prior experience so I took it as a great compliment that I had it in me to be able to drive on a track..

It still took a 2 years before I progressed to Intermediate (and 4 years total before getting to Advanced) but just as my 1st instructor promised... your speed ends up moving up as you get better with the right line and more confidence in what you and your car can do.

I actually use a lot of the same techniques now when I instruct... and usually have the student just stay in 3rd gear and will 'reel them in' if I feel they are doing to much 'racing' in the straights and forgetting to concentrate on the right line to take...

I've been fortunate to never have a student with 'too much ego' to take instruction.. most people are very rationale and do not want to wreck their car that day... so it all works out..

BrokeAss

To my point, you might have agreed to instruct him. .....but chances are that I would have assigned you to another driver with a similar car and one who could have benefited from your experiences.

You're both right that *any* instructor can take *any* car and teach the line.

My point is that with a waiting list for each and every event, I don't have to accept every car and every driver at every event.

It comes down to the difference between could and should.
You *could* have instructed him. Should you have to? Are there other PCA members who could have benefited from you experience in a 951?

M758

Hey C4...
If I am just doing the basics it is the same in 951 as in 500 hp supra. Heck a 500 hp 951 is very similar to a supra. Big frigging deal. If the guy was a PCA member and signed up in plenty of time I would have been pissed of if you did not admit him.

There are only a few reasons I would support not allowing him.

1) Not a PCA member
2) Clearly Stated policy of Porsche's First if the group fills-up.

Other wise there is no reason to not allow him. I don't care if he had a 1000 hp supra. If you are a an instructor you can't always get the cars you want. As an instructor you have volunteer to help a student drive. Just because they have any type of car does not mean they are not safe or that the car is some how not safe. If I were in that situation I might give a potentialy problem matic student and car to more experienced instructor or to some with the right personality.

PS...
In our region we don't put instructor car type with driver car type. The pool of instructors is limited and really not the same make up as student car types. We mostly get what we get and most instructors are fine. In some case we may change, but that is due to driver not really the car they are in.

Geo

I'm not sure what this statement has to do with a 500 hp Supra. I suspect it reveals some underlying presumptions.

That said, I can appreciate both sides of this, mainly because you have a waiting list. But as Joe said, if the guy was a PCA member, for me that would be a little hard to swallow.

Like Joe, I wouldn't have any problem instructing a novice in nearly any car. Mainly this is because I wouldn't expect to truly be anywhere near the performance envelope during their first weekend. As an instructor I can exercise some control over this by sitting them down, and having a conversation with them, even if it means making them sit in the pits for a while during their session. The biggest problem is discovering that someone's ***** are bigger than their ability. I'm comfortable with being able to sort that out.

I can appreciate the interest in matching up a student with an instructor with a similar car. That is the only interest I have in doing a DE with my 944 when it is ready. But I also aleady have several years of racing experience and just want someone to help me up the learning curve with a new car as quickly as possible before jumping in the deep end at a race.

kurt M

I think it is poor form to talk about or act on not letting someone in for any reason other then being next or not on the list. If the car meets the written rules and he signed up in time he should be in and not excluded via capricious action by one person. This goes against the whole idea of a car club and PCA is a car club. I am not talking about an unsafe setup. High hp is not in itself unsafe as it can be used in part.

I have a 912. They are diferent than 911s in weight, balance and power. ithey need to be driven in a way that is slightly diferent than you would drive a same year 911 to get the most from them. If a guy in a 912 signs up but no instructors drive one should you bounce him out? Should I only instruct in 912s? If so I will be sitting over there in the shade as mine has the only one I have seen on the track for 5 years running. (I know why too ) I have instructed in 356s 911s 944s 951s 968s 928s 996s 924s 914s boxsters Cy-annes at HPDC turbos, twin turbos, Chebbies, Furds, Minis, Volvos and so on.
When I was first instructing I would look at my students car and think I don't know this car very well and I am going to do this guy a disservice by wasting his time. BUT, I was at a higher driving level than the student and 20 seconds in the car I was reading it from the seat of my pants and giving instruction. Would I be the guy to get a Red run group 9.9/10s guy in a 996 TT to 10/10ths. No, but this is not the job at hand in DE. Can I help and keep safe a guy in a 951? You bet as instructing at the green and blue levels is far more reading the driver and adjusting the communication to his/her needs than the syllabus. The lessons themselves are easy, getting them into the students head in clear and usable form is not always so.

I have also found that the example 20 something with his life’s earnings rolled into a 500hp supra is not hard to instruct as he is driving everything he owns and has worked for around. The 50 something with the "What the heck, I think this is the next play toy to get" can be a frigging handful as he has a preconceived well nourished idea of self and the car is a small portion of total worth. BTDT got the T shirt on both counts. I have had a lot of fun in a Honda civic that smelled of the pizza the owner delivered to pay for the car and track day as well as then other way around in a C4S.

Adam Richman

I couldn't agree more - if an instructor cannot help both a VW Rabbit and a Lamborghini Jalpa find the safe line, he should NOT be out there wearing that hat**. And think it in part is why I have always taken issue w/ the exclusivity of PCA in its explicit or implicit rules. I have instructed students in anything from 930s to hybrid Civics and CRXs, from Audi A4 Quattros and Scooby WRXs to 70hp Sciroccos. I will NEVER allow my comfort level be dictated by the type of car I am riding in, that will ONLY come from the steering nut (and although the cars might differ in levels of preparedness for track, the drivers never directly map to that).

I think this is a statement you should be careful with (actually I think you should be careful w/ "no bias" and refer to the car as a "rice mobile" too but that's a different story). A) there is nothing written anywhere that says Joe drives a 951 empiracly correctly (not saying he doesn't but moreso saying there are always many ways to make things work for an individual)***. B) there is nothing that says that his potential student will benefit at ALL from Joe's experience in a 951. C) there is nothing to say that because both own the same car, both will communicate well with each other. D) it sends a very dangerous message to the STUDENT when you tell them that they "need" a driver of a like car to ride with them - dangerous for the day that you DON'T have a "951-Joe" around - how much is that student thinking to himself w/ that guest 911 instructor (I sure hope this jackass knows what he's telling me ... ). Sowing the seeds of distrust in the student/instructor relationship is just flat out a bad idea.

** I do believe that as you advance up to slipping the car around, a person with a good bit of knowledge of the chassis helps a good deal. But in all honesty, if the student is at the point they are slipping the car around, I don't want to be in it any more. There is a place for in car instruction (read: instilling a safe confidence and competence in the driver) and there is a place for watching from outside the car (read: race schools or advanced assistance for a solo driver).

*** not meant as a slap, just needed an apt example.

mitch236

I have to say that I would not instruct a novice with a 1000 HP car. That is just too dangerous. Things could get way out of control so fast that there would be no hope of recovery. Also, for the 500 HP Supra I would want to be assured that the chassis is up to the task. Are the brakes upgraded to match the power? How about the suspension. Listen, I am a volunteer instructor but I shouldn't have to put myself in an uncomfortable situation. If I don't feel safe, I don't get in.

Knowing how fair Terry is I can imagine the conversation going something like this,
Terry: so what kind of car do you have?
Novice: it's a Supra Turbo. I replaced the turbo, the ECU, exhaust, cams, and some other engine components. It makes somewhere upwards of 500 HP.
Terry: have you done any other modifications?
Novice: I have put a 5-point harness on the driver side but still have the stock seat.
Terry: hummm.... how are the brakes?
Novice: they work well. I haven't had to replace anything since I bought the car 6 months ago.

BrokeAss

Geo, Kurt and Adam - What student/instructor pairing rules would you guys suggest then? I'm open to listening to your constructive feedback on what you would do differenly if you were the registrar.

BrokeAss

Kurt - I couldn't disagree more. I organize PCA drivers eds for the benefit our region, its membership and the sorrounding region. Why shouldn't PCA members have priority? There are plenty of other performance driving clubs out there.

I'm there to make sure we have enough drivers to offset the cost of track rental, match students and instructors, provide a safe, educational and fun weekend for our members.

I'm not obligated to open the door anyone with a check in their first and tech inspection form.

Its not just the students I have to accomodate. I also have to accomodate our instructors. Some guys love two students, some can't take two students in a South Florida August. Sure, I could have sold more student seats to our events. It would have been good the clubs coffer, but bad for the event. I'd rather run an event with a smaller student group and bring in less revenue than have an event bursting at the seams and burning out instructors.

Most of the guys that instruct for our region really appreciate the consider our region affords them.

RedlineMan

Hey All;

I'm from the "whatever instructor is next on the list" school. Mix and match, it doesn't matter to me, and shouldn't. I'm also from the "who's ever next in the sign up line" camp. Unless you have some other reason for excluding someone (and there ARE some good ones), first come, first served. It's the only way to maintain a transparent process, and that is important.

Points -

1) If you have a high intermediate that requests model specific instruction to improve to an advanced level, then I can certainly see pairing them with someone who drives that chassis well. I drove a 944T in anger for the first time last weekend, and it IS a different animal. I can get you to 90%, but the last 10 I can't do (yet) myself, so...

2) Pairing students and instructors at relative random is also how you build an experienced and versatile instructor corps. A point not to be dismissed. The only real reasons I can see for hand picking them is for the above (highly specific knowledge), for known problem children (hard-heads for hard-cases), or instructors who only fit in certain cars... like me!

sjanes

Bingo! To me, this is the most important part of the instructor/student relationship.

So far this year, I've been in the right seat of: 996, 996TT, modded 930,stock 930, Ferrari 355, GT-3, 944 N/A, 944 Turbo, stock 87 Carrera. Except the last one, none of these cars are anything like my 87 Targa.

The only problem that I had with wrt a lack of familiarity with any of these cars is that I couldn't figure out how to open the door on the Ferrari

JCP911S

Some thoughts...

First, bumping a PCA member with a P-car from an event in favor of a non-member non P-car is not fair IMHO

Second, if events are constantly sold-out with P-car owners, a P-Car only rule is fairer than a car-by-car system... fewer decisions mean fewer disputes.

Third, our club lets lots of different cars in and it is alot of fun...... many of these guys have run with us for years and are virtually "family" however...

Occasionally folks from other culbs do not share the PCA "culture"... this is not snobbery...it is alot of time spent teaching people on (and off) track behavior designed to make the event safe and enjoyable... it is important to understand the rules... this is mostly a problem in non-instructed cars.

The performance capabilities of some cars are harder to judge... most cars out there simply are not engineered to withstand track conditions... so that does make it a bit tougher for the tech guys.

THe decision of who and what to let into DE events is a tough one and we should let each of the clubs make those decisions as they see best.

I do not think exclusionary rules are "snobbery". Our club has excluded several P-Cars for poor maintnenance and several PCA drivers for behavior issues over the years... this issue is the safety and lerning environment of the majority of the students

Geo

They should IMHO.

If I were the Tsar of a local region's DE program, the pecking order would be:

1) PCA region members - any car
2) PCA non-region member (or "other region") - any car
3) Any Tom, Dick or Bob Wolleck

If I had a full program and had to tell some folks no and didn't have anything else to go on about some people, I'd probably choose P-car drivers first. Probably. But that is the only level at which I might exclude someone for not having a P-car.

I'm sure they do. As an instructor I would appreciate that as well. When we do our annual SE-R Club of America convention DE, we are alway short of instructors. I typically only miss 1-2 sessions all day and they are as likely as not going to me my sessions. We don't assign a single instructor to a student for the whole day for a number of reasons I won't go into here. Anyway, as a result I'm pretty spent by the end of the day. So I can appreciate your comments on this.