hacker-pschorr

I guess the lack of spectators and promotion money being stuffed down Bernie's pockets have nothing to to with it. Indy is only a few years old, runoff area there is worse than Road America, which is 50 years old.

Phokaioglaukos

Last weekend we discussed this point for a bit on a track walk with our chief instructor. We surmised that the rationale for the change may have been in part that a off at Turn 1 would not need to stop a race now as it would with a car in the kitty litter, but we also noted that the tire marks on the new pavement all stopped well in advance of the wall. A spinning car has good grip on that surface, and perhaps is less likely to flip if going in sideways. In sum, the group was happy with the change.

The move of much of the armco back was welcome, but not as much as the addition of tire walls with the sheeting in front of it. In many places one would expect a car going off to hit and slide along the wall, dissipating energy over time.

Cris Brady

As a visitor to that gravel trap in previous races, I was happy to see it go. Plus it gives a lot more room for mistakes into turn one on the start. That said, I didn't once go past the white curbing and use any of that asphalt in the pca race in June.

Well, maybe once or twice ...

Mike S.

This is most tragic. My sincerest condolances to Mr. Wiholm's family, friends, and the instructor. May the grace of God shine on Mr Wilholm and may He comfort those who grieve this loss.

If anyone becomes aware of anything being done by the PCA (region or National) or Rennlist to express our condolances, please make mention of any details. I'm sure many would like to participate.

Mike

Yargk

You're probably right. It's an interesting question though. I found somewhere that there is 1 death per 60,000,000 miles driven on public roads. In my region, there are 5 track days per year, so with 80 people in attendance and each driving 200 miles we have 80,000 miles driven in DEs per year in my region. I'm guessing that in all of the PCA we have 10 times that, 800,000 miles. So if we have on average 1 death per year, then it is less than 100 times more dangerous per mile on a track than on a public road. If we have a death every decade it's less than 10 times more dangerous per mile than public roads. I'm not sure what the average deaths are per year in the PCA, but it doesn't seem to be over 1000 times as dangerous as public roads. I wish driving in general was safer and track driving wasn't 10 times or 100 times as dangerous. Where I live I see accidents every week and driving on freeways feels very dangerous, I hate traffic. What happened is tragic. Track driving is dangerous, but so is street driving since it seems that if you drive 20,000 miles a year and do 1 track day you're just as likely to die on public roads that year as at the track.

caf

That's EXACTLY what I mean. I'm not in favor of forcing older venues out; but if drivers choose newer facilities with safer run-offs then these facilities will eventually supplant those that are out-of-date.

caf

Yeah, and that no run-off area of Indy that uses oval Turn 1 is the ONLY area that has been a problem for accidents--i.e. Ralf x 2. And if not for that same wall, the Michelin blow-out scenario this year wouldn't have been nearly the worry it was. It's the perfect example of a hybrid track--partly new, partly old with the expected results.

hacker-pschorr

caf,
My point is, the FIA is not leaving older tracks due to safety - its money. They are talking about dropping SPA since attendance is so low, it has nothing to do with runoff area.

I agree newer tracks (most of them) are safer.

dgz924s

New vs old....I would imagine the PCA and other clubs will look very seriously at car safety and driver skills in regards to safety. In reality there is no such thing as a safe track, just some are more open to error from a drivers perspective. It is the ERROR that needs attention not the track layout/safety.

Having a track that demands respect and finesse makes a driver much safer than a course with a ton of run off. Run off is great but how about keeping a car in control on a tight track. I learned on a wide open track and also became more aggressive and stupid as a result, but since I have HPT to run also it gives me a track that I must respect or hit a wall.

Simply said a tight demanding track will make you or break you. Driver skill is where the ball should drop not changing the track.

Geo

And don't forget boring.

Flying Finn

Ditto that.

There no comparison between for example Spa and some of the new tracks.

hacker-pschorr

The problem with new tracks boils down to money. They want to make a track that fits into a little pocket to fill the grandstands. They don't want grass fields or hills covered in people (cannot sell seats, just GA access that way). They want a NASCAR ring with a road coarse in the middle, and that is what most new tracks look like.

Then you have CART (sorry, Champ Car) going after street tracks like theres no tomorrow (3 more on the design table as we speak). Long Beach and Monte Carlo are historic so they are fun for that reason - otherwise stop with the street tracks.
Talk about dangerous, could you imagine a novice PCA DE at Long Beach?

38D

I think your math is way low. The larger regions like CVR will do 25+ days in a single year, with an average of ~150 people per day. Miles per day is probably more like 140, so the total CVR miles for the year would be ~ 25 * 150 * 140 = 525,000...and that's just for one region! With over 150 PCA regions, I'd bet you are looking at over 15M miles per year. Given that this is the only known death in 30+ years of PCA DE, that's nearly 8 times as safe as street driving.

RedlineMan

Yargk -

A well reasoned teatise, but I am inclined to feel as Colin does here. There are well over 200 track events in the greater Northeast this season just in PCA alone (1,2,& 3 day). That is just a ton of miles driven. This has been going on for many years as well.

If we can assume that this poor fellow's demise was as a result of an impact (unfortunately, it appears we will never know), then he would indeed be the first in a DE, and that is a stellar safety record in my mind. Yes, one is one too many, but ONLY one in 30-some years is rather miraculous. That there had to be one at all is very hurtful to us all. Until now, I must feel that we have been simply blessed.

No where will you ever hear me equate "safe" to "you can turn off your brain and not worry." I dance with that devil in every session. I know I am the limiting factor in my package. If I want to go faster, it is I who has to step up. The other side of the sword is potentialy quite dark. Cost, Benefit.

Yargk

I was trying to be as conservative as possible and simply disprove a previous assertion that DE is over 1000 times more dangerous than the street! Thanks for the info, despite the tragic event, I'm glad the PCA runs so many accident free miles. I suspected it actually was safer than the street, but wanted to keep the math low to avoid scrutiny that it was too high and I was saying DE was safer than it was.