Fatality at WGI DE this weekend
08-01-2005, 11:43 PM
#91
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Originally Posted by Larry Herman
I do not see how we can eliminate all risk in what can be a dangerous hobby.
08-02-2005, 12:13 AM
#92
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Originally Posted by Larry Herman
I don't know how you could ever eliminate driver error from driving on race tracks. It happens to all experience levels of drivers. Sometimes it is skill that prevents an incedent. Sometimes it is just good luck. On one lap I put all 4 wheels on the turtles coming out of turn 10 this past weekend. It would have been a very ugly off at 110 mph straight at the tire wall. I kept the car under control, on the very edge of the track and continued on my way, virtually unnoticed. I have replayed the incedent many times in my head over the last 48 hours.
We are only talking about being 2 or 3 feet wider than my normal line here. I still am not sure how it happened. Did I carry a little more speed into the turn, or did the car just push away from the apex a little because of something on the track? Regardless, I went a little wide, and it took my experience and calm to make this a non-incedent. How would someone with less track time have handled it? Is it the same 2 or 3 feet that caused Erik's crash?
Should we limit novices to lesser hp cars? That would not have helped Erik. His Boxster is considered a moderate car. Should he have had proper safety equipment? He had 5 point belts that presumably held him in the car. I do not see how we can eliminate all risk in what can be a dangerous hobby.
We are only talking about being 2 or 3 feet wider than my normal line here. I still am not sure how it happened. Did I carry a little more speed into the turn, or did the car just push away from the apex a little because of something on the track? Regardless, I went a little wide, and it took my experience and calm to make this a non-incedent. How would someone with less track time have handled it? Is it the same 2 or 3 feet that caused Erik's crash?
Should we limit novices to lesser hp cars? That would not have helped Erik. His Boxster is considered a moderate car. Should he have had proper safety equipment? He had 5 point belts that presumably held him in the car. I do not see how we can eliminate all risk in what can be a dangerous hobby.
We always seem to focus on what WE the drivers do. Do we ever focus on what THEY ( track owners ) for us??? With the popularity of DE's it is bound that we will mourn more drivers novice and experienced. For me in order to minimize the risk ( as it can never be eliminated) we have to vote with our wallets and send a CLEAR message to the race track owners and our regions, by sponsoring and running on racetracks that care for our safety. In ortherwords race tracks that have plenty of run off room, proper safety barriers, proper driving surface etc. When is the last time that anyone read a guide of which tracks meet lets say the latest FIA standards, where is a guide that evaluates the safety of the track itself??? F1 , the pinacle of racing, have extremely strict standards when it comes to the safety of the tracks. How many tracks in the US and Canada meet these standards??? WGI from the onboard video I see looks like a Wall Canyon. If the same accident happened lets say at the Barber track which meets the FIA safety standards as a track, do you think that the driver would still be here with us today?
I know many will disagree with me, but I really feel very strongly about this. Its not like we do this for free... we PAY to rent the track and as Customers I think we are entitled to getting the product we pay for. I was talking a few days ago with a new friend up here in my new home in Vancouver. Sadly here we only have one race track, the Mission raceway. Its a damn wall canyon with no run offs anywhere and an ungly wall protruding on the main straight which creates a kink so to speak but in case of a flat tire you can hit that damn thing head on. I told him then that I will never run the track. He was annoyed a bit because he said , "well what can we do this is the only track we have"... So I responded to him...well dont race there!!! If all of us drivers decide not to race or do DE's etc dont you think that either the track will close or will do improvements?
Personally I feel that is an area where we and our regions should take a stand and send a message to the track owners to provide us with safe venues. Tracks like Putnam for example are really a joy to run as you know that if you mess up , chances are you are just going to have to spend a lot of time cleaning your suspension from all the grass, rather than spend the night if not worse at the local hospital.
08-02-2005, 12:25 AM
#93
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Danny, I'd love to see a safety evaluation of the tracks in the NE, and I bet the readers of this forum could create a pretty good one in just a couple of days. I'm too new to DEs to contribute, but others here could do much off the top of their head. I'll start a new thread and I encourage those who are reading this one to contribute.
As to the influence the DE group has on the track design and modification, I'm pessimistic that we have much--at least at places like WGI where I have to believe that it's NASCAR and the other pros, and the crowds of spectators they bring, that make the finances work. At tracks that don't have pro races we might have more influence. I understand that Shenandoah made a number of changes to accommodate DE events. That said, some of sponsors of the events I do on the motorcycles install their own safety equipment (air fences and the like) to make the tracks they use more friendly. I don't know how feasible that is for PCA events, but....
As to the influence the DE group has on the track design and modification, I'm pessimistic that we have much--at least at places like WGI where I have to believe that it's NASCAR and the other pros, and the crowds of spectators they bring, that make the finances work. At tracks that don't have pro races we might have more influence. I understand that Shenandoah made a number of changes to accommodate DE events. That said, some of sponsors of the events I do on the motorcycles install their own safety equipment (air fences and the like) to make the tracks they use more friendly. I don't know how feasible that is for PCA events, but....
08-02-2005, 01:25 AM
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Maybe voicing concerns to track owners is the solution.
This is a pic of what was Alpha Zero, an off camber kink in the front stretch at Heartland Park Topeka. A couple of years ago a driver in a PCA event was killed just over the crest of this thing. I don't know all the specifics. I never had a problem with this section of the track, infact I found it a thrill yet it was of great enough concern that its now being cut-down somewhat in a attempt at avoiding problems. The fact that the run-offs will be held here does play a part in the owners decision to do this, however concerns were made known.
This is a pic of what was Alpha Zero, an off camber kink in the front stretch at Heartland Park Topeka. A couple of years ago a driver in a PCA event was killed just over the crest of this thing. I don't know all the specifics. I never had a problem with this section of the track, infact I found it a thrill yet it was of great enough concern that its now being cut-down somewhat in a attempt at avoiding problems. The fact that the run-offs will be held here does play a part in the owners decision to do this, however concerns were made known.
08-02-2005, 01:35 AM
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Danny - well said. I agree with you completely. I'm new to DEs and I absolutely love it. Since I'm a novice I'm only going to tracks where there's more run off room and very few walls. I realize that this is the smart thing to do. We also must remember that an over confident driver can be a dangerous one. We all need to be extremely careful out there and realize when we're tired and less attentive. Maybe even skip that last session altogether. I know I have.
08-02-2005, 02:01 AM
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As some other people have mentioned, there are no "safe" tracks. I was at VIR this past weekend, which is generally considered to be one of the safer tracks because there is more runoff. Not so in the rain because the clay soil basically offers no slowing resistance in the rain. If you go off there when its wet, you just keep going straight until you hit something.
I was at a race event at Summit Point this year where a Miata went 2 wheels off after T3 (easy enough to do!), and then ended up spinning to the inside. He flew up over a wall, and far enough into the woods that the EV crew couldn't find him until he stood on his car and started waving! They radioed in for a chainsaw to get the car out! He got away with very minimal damage to the car and no injuries, amazing.
Freak accidents will happen on the street as well as on the track. When Earnhardt wrecked, it didn't look like a particularly bad hit. It just ended up that the physics worked exactly the way they did.
Someone mentioned the possibility of getting hit with a golf ball while playing golf. My father actually once got hit in the head with a golf ball and was fine. A friend of mine's father was killed by a golf ball to the head. The difference is random.
I was at a race event at Summit Point this year where a Miata went 2 wheels off after T3 (easy enough to do!), and then ended up spinning to the inside. He flew up over a wall, and far enough into the woods that the EV crew couldn't find him until he stood on his car and started waving! They radioed in for a chainsaw to get the car out! He got away with very minimal damage to the car and no injuries, amazing.
Freak accidents will happen on the street as well as on the track. When Earnhardt wrecked, it didn't look like a particularly bad hit. It just ended up that the physics worked exactly the way they did.
Someone mentioned the possibility of getting hit with a golf ball while playing golf. My father actually once got hit in the head with a golf ball and was fine. A friend of mine's father was killed by a golf ball to the head. The difference is random.
08-02-2005, 02:44 AM
#97
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Originally Posted by centerpunch
"By denying the fact that track events are a risky activity-even if performed by intelligent, capable, achieving people-we hamper our ability to manage or reduce the risks we face every time we pull onto the track."
See the whole article at http://www.kingschools.com/news/BigLie.htm
.
See the whole article at http://www.kingschools.com/news/BigLie.htm
.
08-02-2005, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Darren
As some other people have mentioned, there are no "safe" tracks. I was at VIR this past weekend, which is generally considered to be one of the safer tracks because there is more runoff. Not so in the rain because the clay soil basically offers no slowing resistance in the rain. If you go off there when its wet, you just keep going straight until you hit something.
I was at a race event at Summit Point this year where a Miata went 2 wheels off after T3 (easy enough to do!), and then ended up spinning to the inside. He flew up over a wall, and far enough into the woods that the EV crew couldn't find him until he stood on his car and started waving! They radioed in for a chainsaw to get the car out! He got away with very minimal damage to the car and no injuries, amazing.
Freak accidents will happen on the street as well as on the track. When Earnhardt wrecked, it didn't look like a particularly bad hit. It just ended up that the physics worked exactly the way they did.
Someone mentioned the possibility of getting hit with a golf ball while playing golf. My father actually once got hit in the head with a golf ball and was fine. A friend of mine's father was killed by a golf ball to the head. The difference is random.
I was at a race event at Summit Point this year where a Miata went 2 wheels off after T3 (easy enough to do!), and then ended up spinning to the inside. He flew up over a wall, and far enough into the woods that the EV crew couldn't find him until he stood on his car and started waving! They radioed in for a chainsaw to get the car out! He got away with very minimal damage to the car and no injuries, amazing.
Freak accidents will happen on the street as well as on the track. When Earnhardt wrecked, it didn't look like a particularly bad hit. It just ended up that the physics worked exactly the way they did.
Someone mentioned the possibility of getting hit with a golf ball while playing golf. My father actually once got hit in the head with a golf ball and was fine. A friend of mine's father was killed by a golf ball to the head. The difference is random.
I personally experienced the Golf thing. Some jacka$$ tried to wail a fairway wood so hard he spun himself and hit a line drive at a 90 degree angle to the target.
The ball whistled past my left ear brushing my hair back in the process. Went right over the shoulder of a friend of mine ten paces behind me. If I had been a couple of inches to the right it would have hit me square between the eyes.
08-02-2005, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Larkins
Maybe voicing concerns to track owners is the solution.
This is a pic of what was Alpha Zero, an off camber kink in the front stretch at Heartland Park Topeka. A couple of years ago a driver in a PCA event was killed just over the crest of this thing. I don't know all the specifics. I never had a problem with this section of the track, infact I found it a thrill yet it was of great enough concern that its now being cut-down somewhat in a attempt at avoiding problems. The fact that the run-offs will be held here does play a part in the owners decision to do this, however concerns were made known.
This is a pic of what was Alpha Zero, an off camber kink in the front stretch at Heartland Park Topeka. A couple of years ago a driver in a PCA event was killed just over the crest of this thing. I don't know all the specifics. I never had a problem with this section of the track, infact I found it a thrill yet it was of great enough concern that its now being cut-down somewhat in a attempt at avoiding problems. The fact that the run-offs will be held here does play a part in the owners decision to do this, however concerns were made known.
08-02-2005, 09:37 AM
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Points of order;
- As I am aware, this is the first fatality as a result of contact in a PCA DE event. The incident at Lime Rock was at a Club Race, and was the usual unfortunate alignment of circumstances triggered by driver error. I was there. If memory serves, the incident at Heartland Park was a long time PCA member racing in SCCA or some other series. I could be wrong. The death at Pocono was a heart attack at a Club Race. I watched it happen right in front of me. The most amazing feat of driver control I've ever seen. Bob Moier died of a heart attack in the pits at Pocono at a DE.
In any event, it is indeed true that most organizations run similar programs, and it could easily happen anywhere. That we in PCA had been so fortunate to date is indeed as much down to luck as skill.
- To suggest that anyone meant "without danger" when they said that DE is "safe" is a rather large distortion. Yes indeed I think there exist degrees of awareness and understanding for sure. I have been trying to open people's eyes to the inherent danger for many years. I try and do my part to push back the frontiers of ignorance, both in driving skill and in managing risk. In then end, it will always be a matter of controlling the ignorance of the driver where the greatest gains in safety are to be made.
- Track safety? Yes, there are places that I'd like to see changes. The Glen is what it is. Such as it is, I feel it is pretty "safe." No, there is no run off in a lot of places, but the barriers that are there are upgraded to the latest energy absorbing specs, short of "Safer Barriers." If a track is built out in a corn field, as many club tracks are these days, the ability to make them wide open is obvious. But what will happen when one out-of-control car crosses the field and impacts another? It will happen some day. Is that an unsafe situation? Short of turning the classic tracks into corn fields, there is not necessarily more that can be done.
As I am aware, this is only the third person to die at WGI in 50-some-odd years of driving fast. Francois Cevert, JD McDuffie, and this poor fellow. Nothing will ever be "safe enough," but that's a pretty good record in my mind.
- I too would be very keen to know the details of this sorrowful incident so that I might further my understandning of safety, and then pass it along to all of my friends. I'm afraid, however, that it will be the usual hushed affair, and that is too bad in some respects. Damned lawyers! As can be clearly evidenced on this forum, we seek not to rubber neck, but to learn. That is a noble effort, and attempts to sift some good purpose from such an unfortunate occurence.
- Dearest Larry; Please think about that two-liter 914 again, won't you? I haven't gotten to know you well enough yet, and I can't bear to lose another almost-friend!!!
- As I am aware, this is the first fatality as a result of contact in a PCA DE event. The incident at Lime Rock was at a Club Race, and was the usual unfortunate alignment of circumstances triggered by driver error. I was there. If memory serves, the incident at Heartland Park was a long time PCA member racing in SCCA or some other series. I could be wrong. The death at Pocono was a heart attack at a Club Race. I watched it happen right in front of me. The most amazing feat of driver control I've ever seen. Bob Moier died of a heart attack in the pits at Pocono at a DE.
In any event, it is indeed true that most organizations run similar programs, and it could easily happen anywhere. That we in PCA had been so fortunate to date is indeed as much down to luck as skill.
- To suggest that anyone meant "without danger" when they said that DE is "safe" is a rather large distortion. Yes indeed I think there exist degrees of awareness and understanding for sure. I have been trying to open people's eyes to the inherent danger for many years. I try and do my part to push back the frontiers of ignorance, both in driving skill and in managing risk. In then end, it will always be a matter of controlling the ignorance of the driver where the greatest gains in safety are to be made.
- Track safety? Yes, there are places that I'd like to see changes. The Glen is what it is. Such as it is, I feel it is pretty "safe." No, there is no run off in a lot of places, but the barriers that are there are upgraded to the latest energy absorbing specs, short of "Safer Barriers." If a track is built out in a corn field, as many club tracks are these days, the ability to make them wide open is obvious. But what will happen when one out-of-control car crosses the field and impacts another? It will happen some day. Is that an unsafe situation? Short of turning the classic tracks into corn fields, there is not necessarily more that can be done.
As I am aware, this is only the third person to die at WGI in 50-some-odd years of driving fast. Francois Cevert, JD McDuffie, and this poor fellow. Nothing will ever be "safe enough," but that's a pretty good record in my mind.
- I too would be very keen to know the details of this sorrowful incident so that I might further my understandning of safety, and then pass it along to all of my friends. I'm afraid, however, that it will be the usual hushed affair, and that is too bad in some respects. Damned lawyers! As can be clearly evidenced on this forum, we seek not to rubber neck, but to learn. That is a noble effort, and attempts to sift some good purpose from such an unfortunate occurence.
- Dearest Larry; Please think about that two-liter 914 again, won't you? I haven't gotten to know you well enough yet, and I can't bear to lose another almost-friend!!!
08-02-2005, 10:00 AM
#101
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It worries me to hear talk of insisting that tracks are made "safer". No track will ever be safe as long as we are driving on them. It is inherant in our sport that accidents will happen. Until we are driving in plastic bubbles at very low speed these accidents will put us at risk. Better I think to concentrate on ourselves. Are we all doing everything we can to make our cars as passively safe as possible? Are we as drivers doing everything we can to make ourselves as dynamically safe as possible? In the real world of day-to-day driving we tend to be a little cautious when face with a real "walled canyon". If we can't see as escape I hope we would naturally back off. A race track is no different. Some places are safer to push our capabilities than others. When faced with a situation that appears to leave no room for error isn't it our responsibility to ourselves and other drivers to be a little cautious? One of my early instructors went to great lengths to explain that DEing was as much about knowing what to do when things go wrong as it is about knowing what to do when they are right. His advice was to always look for the escape hatch and if you can't find it, back off until you have created it. Accidents will still happen but it seems to me that following this advice would allow us to continue with the sport that we all love so much -- insisting that tracks (rather than drivers) are made "safe" would in my estimation ultimately end it.
Having said all of that, I am sickened by the loss of one of own and send my heart felt condolences to everybody left in pain by this unfortunate incident.
Having said all of that, I am sickened by the loss of one of own and send my heart felt condolences to everybody left in pain by this unfortunate incident.
08-02-2005, 10:05 AM
#102
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Here is the info on the Heartland Park fatality.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOPEKA, Kan. (April 5, 2004) – Dave Pistole, 53, of Pittsburg, Kan., was fatally injured in a single-car, on-track incident at Heartland Park Saturday afternoon during the Sports Car Club of America Club Racing Regional event there.
Witnesses said the accident occurred near turn one of the road course when Pistole’s Grand Touring 2 Porsche 911 went off the left side of the track into the grass, crossed back over the course and ran into a barrier.
Emergency crews were on the scene immediately and Pistole was transported by helicopter to the Kansas University Medical Center in Kansas City where he later died from injuries sustained in the crash.
“The entire family at SCCA wants to extend its heartfelt condolences to Dave’s wife, Evelyn, and everyone else in his family,” said Steve Johnson, SCCA President and CEO. “We want them to know that he will always be remembered as part of SCCA.”
Pistole had been a member of SCCA since 1985. He is survived by his wife, Evelyn, 55; two sons; T.C., 29, and Sean, 25; and daughter, Ann, 22.
A funeral Mass is tentatively scheduled for 10 a.m. Wednesday at Sacred Heart Catholic Church in Frontenac, Kan.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOPEKA, Kan. (April 5, 2004) – Dave Pistole, 53, of Pittsburg, Kan., was fatally injured in a single-car, on-track incident at Heartland Park Saturday afternoon during the Sports Car Club of America Club Racing Regional event there.
Witnesses said the accident occurred near turn one of the road course when Pistole’s Grand Touring 2 Porsche 911 went off the left side of the track into the grass, crossed back over the course and ran into a barrier.
Emergency crews were on the scene immediately and Pistole was transported by helicopter to the Kansas University Medical Center in Kansas City where he later died from injuries sustained in the crash.
“The entire family at SCCA wants to extend its heartfelt condolences to Dave’s wife, Evelyn, and everyone else in his family,” said Steve Johnson, SCCA President and CEO. “We want them to know that he will always be remembered as part of SCCA.”
Pistole had been a member of SCCA since 1985. He is survived by his wife, Evelyn, 55; two sons; T.C., 29, and Sean, 25; and daughter, Ann, 22.
A funeral Mass is tentatively scheduled for 10 a.m. Wednesday at Sacred Heart Catholic Church in Frontenac, Kan.
08-02-2005, 10:16 AM
#103
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Originally Posted by Yargk
Thanks for the post. Personally, I'm always a little frightened by the situation and it keeps me on my toes. However, I have a few friends that I want to bring out and I have told them it's safe. I truly believe it's not any more dangerous than driving on a freeway and most people incorrectly consider that safe. It's a difficult matter to convince car enthusiests who need to work on their driving to make themselves safer by telling them that they should do something and then telling them how dangerous it is. I guess you do have to give the whole story and say, it's not much worse that driving on public roads, but you should be worried more on public roads because those are very dangerous so don't be cocky. Be careful and don't drive faster than your situational awareness allows.
Sometimes I drive many months and pass probably hundreds of thousands of cars without seeing an accident on the freeway.
But it's not unusual to have an "incident" at a school with 80 cars (each driving only 200 miles in an entire weekend) where a car is significantly damaged.
08-02-2005, 10:21 AM
#104
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Might I suggest we keep this a place to pay respects to Erik and his family as it has degenerated (and i'm guilty too) into discussions and (news stories) that belong in their own headings.
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
08-02-2005, 10:23 AM
#105
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Originally Posted by Larry Herman
I was there & know Erik's instructor very well. This was probably Erik's 5th or 6th event. He was in the lowest run group. He was a slower driver, but aware and not particularly aggressive. He had been solo'd before at prior events.
This was his 6th half-hour session on the track, and he was just solo'd. He was entering the laces of the boot (turn 6) where it was surmised that he dropped 2 wheels off on the outside and spun into the tire wall/guardrail. The details are still quite sketchy as it was the first day for the corner worker, and as of yesterday afternoon, we did not hear from the driver who was immediately behind him. He was wearing a five point harness, and it was estimated that he hit the wall at about 80 mph.
Erik was not in the best of health, and it is still unknown whether it was purely driver error, or some sort of seizure or spasm momentarily distracted him. There are many theories, and we may never know. From what I do know, Erik's instructor feels very badly, and is helping the family with arrangements. If I hear any more, I will post it.
On another note, I didn't realize that other rennlisters on this forum were there. Too bad we didn't meet up.
This was his 6th half-hour session on the track, and he was just solo'd. He was entering the laces of the boot (turn 6) where it was surmised that he dropped 2 wheels off on the outside and spun into the tire wall/guardrail. The details are still quite sketchy as it was the first day for the corner worker, and as of yesterday afternoon, we did not hear from the driver who was immediately behind him. He was wearing a five point harness, and it was estimated that he hit the wall at about 80 mph.
Erik was not in the best of health, and it is still unknown whether it was purely driver error, or some sort of seizure or spasm momentarily distracted him. There are many theories, and we may never know. From what I do know, Erik's instructor feels very badly, and is helping the family with arrangements. If I hear any more, I will post it.
On another note, I didn't realize that other rennlisters on this forum were there. Too bad we didn't meet up.
Were the "two wheels off" on the downhill under braking into turn 6? Ie, went too wide right while braking before the turn-in, lost control, spinning into the tire barrier head-on? backwards? no roll-over?
I am asking for specifics as i had a "moment" at WGI turn 6 2 weeks ago (on exit / track out) putting 2 wheels onto the edge of the track. It was without consequence, but was definitely on the limit and gave me pause. It was also the last run-group of the day and was just solo'ed prior to the run.
I feel terrible for the family and espcially the daughter. I have a 5 year old daughter. May God be with them, and they with Him. Sobering situation for all...