Bull

John, have you seen an official determination of cause of death in this case?

Mark in Baltimore

I was poking around UCR's website to see what I missed at Mosport and found this well-written statement purportedly from a Mark Davidson, a Riesentoter instructor.

Please take this information with a grain of salt as neither the information nor the authorship has been truly verified; it was found on a public forum. In the midst of this tragedy is a natural human desire to understand the unknown, as we all have a vested interest in this sport.

Again, my utmost and sincere condolences to his family, to his friends and to his region.

UCR link.

gbaker

I spoke with the Doctor at Schuyler Hospital who received Mr. Wiholm. I won't get into the details out of respect for the deceased, but serious head and neck injuries were involved. Details are not available as an autopsy was not performed.

What a tragedy.

Patrick

This appears to have been written by Todd Sager

http://forums.audiworld.com/a4gen2/msgs/860824.phtml

Mark in Baltimore

Patrick,

Thanks for the clarification.

DJF1

While I agree with you on the matter of using caution, the bottom line is that you are not going to circulate the track at 30mph on a parade lap. You are going to be at speed. Cautious or not. Things happen. Things that sometimes you have absolutely no control off. How about if you have a flat at 120-130mph? How about if something brakes in your car at speed? I spoke about track safety as a way to REDUCE the risk. The risk will never be eliminated and all of us who do that should be concious of it.

Why would insisting tracks be made safer will end what we love doing??? Sorry guys I just dont get these kind of arguments. You dont need to turn tracks to corn fields to have better safety. Would you embark on an old ship if you knew half of its life boats are not operational just because its a "classic"ship? Track owners get paid to provide a product. I think its their obligation to make their tracks as safe as possible. As long as noone cares about it, there will be no improvements on them and things will continue to happen. I dont find this request unreasonable or something that will cause to stop what we love doing.

RedlineMan

Bob, I did not, but Greg has cleared that up, eh? Until I had heard otherwise, I was prepared to assume it was the result of trauma. I apologize to anyone if that was an unwise or hurtful assumption.

Danny -

I understand your point, I also understand the counter to it. There are indeed places that could be improved. Bridge Turn at Tremblant has no tire wall exiting it on the right and the pit wall exiting Namerow on the left could use some padding. Not high speed, but still... The left hand exit wall at Turn 2 at Mosport STILL has no tire wall even though I know a few guys who have stuffed BADLY there. A lot of tracks are also due for an update to the same old piled up tire walls in favor of bolted/strapped stacks, or "belt walls" like LRP and WGI have done.

On the other hand, tracks "don't care" about us. We "don't really count." We are just filler. We can make really well-intentioned pleas, but I would not necessarily expect results from it. Still, you are right that we should speak up.

jittsl

Danny,

I guess I may have lost my point in using too many words. I have no objection to making tracks as safe as they can be. I also believe that most track owners have this on their agenda as well (it is after all in their interest as much as ours). What I was concerned about was that we should be be careful of extending the cost of "risk reduction" to the point where the track owners are forced to say they simply cannot afford to meet our needs. In the end they are bussinesspeople who must weigh the cost against the benefit. If our demands for safety exceed their tolerance for spending then we have indeed cost ourselves the sport we love.

The rest of my argument simply stated that safety in DEing also comes from the way we equip our cars and the way we use our heads. My guess is that we actually agree on all of the factors that make for safety in an unsafe pursuit we simply pioritize differently -- nothing wrong with that.

Laurence

Sam N

My condolences to his family. It is the one time that I hope we don't see threads like this again.

Sam

Martin S.

as suggested by the folks at the Shotover River Jet Boad ride in Christchurch, New Zealand, we are there for as they call it, Thrill Therapy

"Why is it called THRILL THERAPY & why it is good for you??
Studies have shown a good thrill livens up your system, waking up dormant biochemical pathways, that refresh, relieve stress and heal.

You experience a sense of euphoria and well being as your brain receives a welcome cocktail of oxygen, sugar, adrenaline, cortisol and endorphins.
The result . . .a NATURAL HIGH that makes you feel GREAT!"

I have riden a Jet Boat in New Zealand...incredible, a must do: http://www.zqn.co.nz/shotoverjet/

As Danny writes, Things Happen that are out of our control. All we can do is have the best safety equipment possible, have our cars totally prepared with all components in good shape, and have our brains fully functioning and in gear. We DE and Time Trial drivers need to also keep in mind that we are NOT racing. We don't need to drive 10/10 all around the course. If you must drive 10/10ths, get a race car with a cage, a fire supression sustem, a fuel cell...and even then, Things Happen.

M758

DJ,
In Arizona a private citizen did just what you are talking about. He went out with his own money and built a race track that was as safe as he could make it. This track was designed with the DE driver in mind. It was openned in 2003 and was blast to run with generous run offs. 95% of time a simple error would cause the car to become dusty. That was Arizona Motorsports park and unfortunatly got closed down due local politics and noise. Someday I hope it will reopen.

BrokeAss

....here's a map of watkins glen for those of us who haven't had the opportunity to drive it yet.

caf

I think it's interesting to look at this in light of what's happened in F1 in recent years. Older, less safe tracks have been replaced for the most part with more modern facilities with huge areas of run-off, gravel traps, and nary a guard rail in sight (with the exception of Monaco, which is difficult to retire, for obvious reasons). The increase in safety is undeniable.

Maybe it's time for the old design tracks in the U.S. to retire as well. Personally, as a fairly inexperienced DE participant, I am very happy for both me and my car that I have a relatively new facility nearby designed with safety in mind. Certainly, I don't believe for a moment that that eliminates all or most of the risk, but I intend to vote with my feet by supporting facilities that offer modern design.

RJay

When I first went to the Glen I thought it was the most dangerous track I had yet to visit. Armco everywhere, high speeds, little runoff, etc. etc. I've come to believe that while a modest incident at the Glen is very likely to result in serious damage to my car, the barriers are designed to help keep the car contained, upright and sliding downtrack to dissipate energy more slowly. I'm not sure about the removal of the gravel trap at the end of the front straight, but otherwise, from a personal, but not necessarily an equipment standpoint, FWIW, I think its a very safe track.

Race tracks are, whether we like it or not, first and foremost professional, not amatuer venues. Safety concerns are and should therfore be vectored at protecting professional drivers with less regard for machinery, as much as we amatuers without million $$$ yearly budgets might like to have it otherwise. Equally, I'd wager the tracks are designed from a safety standpoint for cars with a certain amount of mass and structural integrity. I can't imagine a European-style Truck GP or motorcycle race taking place at WGI. To continue with the Golf analogy, there is no equivalent of amatuer and pro tee boxes at any race track I've been to. Nevertheless being able to tee it up at the same venues the pros do is one of the great aspects of our sport. As a friend of mine remarked on a spin at LRP, "Hey! I spun on Mark Donhue's oil!"

The price we pay for direct comparions is that when we venture into this world, it needs to be in such a way that we are cogniscent of the risks and aware of the potential consequences. As I got faster, I put in a cage, bought a Hans, ponied up for the SRF, fire system, etc. At my pace, I sometimes feel a little embarassed about "dressing up" like a pro, but in the end I'd rather experience a little excess humility over excessive vulnerability.

Geo

Great. Then we'll have a lot less options to choose from.

Perhaps deciding not to go to a track you don't think is safe would be a better option.