frayed

I've done two track days in my new-to-me 996 C4S, coming from several years of track time in my E36 M3.

I've found that you can read all you want, gain a solid intellectual understanding of rear engine driving dynamics, but it's gonna take a bunch of seat time to really push the car. I'm off my old laptimes, and cannot trust the car like I could my M3. In short, it's stable under power, and not so stable not under power. All the things I could get away with in my M3, I cannot in the 996. And, I understand that this particular car is probably the most forgiving of all 911s ever made.

So, my question for you guys is, have any of you made a transition from a more balanced car, say an M3 or 944, to a 911 and found the learning curve steep? How long did it take to reprogram your brain and commit to the throttle? Have any of you gone back to whatever you were in before after a dose of 911-induced humility?

At this point, albeit early on, I'm questioning my jump to the 911 chassis.

For you texas guys, I was at TWS yesterday, and was about 2 seconds off my 2.02-2.03 pace in my M3 with Kumhos. I had Ara take me out in a beautiful silver GT3 to show me what stability under power is all about, and he ripped off some great, fun laps. I know the performance is there, but I'll need to commit to learning the new chassis.

Greg Fishman

My first thought is to have someone very familiar with 911's to drive your car and see if it is set up correctly. If the rear alignment is out then you will never be quick or secure in the car.

M758

Try a few autocrosses and spin the car a few times.

I can't advocate spining at DE, but in autocross you can for very low risk push the car and exceed its limits. Seems to me that you are not yet comfortable with the "feel" of the car and rightfully cautious at DE. You probably have not spun it and if you had it may have scared you more than anything else.

Sounds like you need to get comfortable with way the weight feels at the back end of the car. I in fact learn most of my car control skills at autocrosses.

Case in point.
On thing you are probably familiar with. Corner entry and the back end gets and begins to move a little. Driver has two options.

1) Throw in the towel and back the speed down steer out of it and both feet in if it goes to far. This is really the safe thing at the track. If you have even the slightest hint of over rotation (oversteer)back it down so that it does not turn in something really bad. Result is typically minor off line excusion.

2) Countersteer and apply a little throttle to balacne the car. Do it right and car move nicely along. do it wrong and you can get bigger trouble. As they often say the biggest impacts occured because the driver tried to save it for too long.

So realizing this at the track my response was always #1. If it feel unstable deal with by slowing down not letting it get out of hand rather than trying to the "hero" and stuff in the car.

Well this where autocross comes in. One day at an event during a non-timed fun run the car stepped out. I could had gone both feet in and slowed the car down qucikly. Instead I said hmm lets try to add power and see what happens. Well I did my first donut in complete control! It was a blast and I started using autocross to learn to control the rear end of the car much better with the throttle. When I errored all that was lost were a few cones. In time I had the confidence to do this stuff at the track and then learned to feel comfortable with an unstable rear of the car. I became confident with my ability to control this at autocross allowed me to do the same at DE.

RedlineMan

Did you choose your screen name before the C4S, or after?

Two track days? C'mon, don't Chicken Little on us yet!!

Good stuff from the guys here.

If I were to distill it down, assuming the car is right, brake before turn in, MANDATORY throttle after. Then when you find some comfort, let it rotate with entry speed, maintain attitude with the steering wheel, and plant the **** HARD with throttle.

And like you said, seat time...

Larry Herman

Not knowing you or your skill level, please take this in the positive spirit that it is meant. Many drivers have a hard time transitioning to rear-engined cars, because the dynamics of those cars force them to drive properly. There are many people going relatively quickly because their cars and tires allow them to take lines that are not functionally correct. That is, they are being saved by the car. A rear-engine car can be very stable and predictable, but it requires you to drive it and manage both ends properly. You cannot just turn the wheel and expect the car to respond. You cannot "get away with anything." You must manage your inputs with proper applications of the brakes or gas, and take lines that allow you to unwind the wheel on turn exit. If you pinch the turn, or lift off the gas at all without some counter-steer, you will spin. It's the nature of the rear weight bias, but they can be drive quickly and comfortably once you learn them...and you will be a better driver for it.

frayed

No, not taken the wrong way at all. Thanks for the input.

JackOlsen

If you can learn to drive a 911 fast, all other cars are going to seem like safe, dull, kiddy rides.

Okay, that may be overstating it a bit. The M3 is a pretty great car -- but it doesn't ask a whole lot of the driver, in my opinion.

Get an instructor who's fast in a 911 to take you out in his car, and possibly take you out in your car. In time, you'll be beating up on the M3s out of every corner.

Sanjeevan

The great thing about the C4S for a beginner is that it's got the training wheels, PSM. It is fabulous for a beginner as you can safely push the car MORE as a beginner, feel the car not liking it and see PSM help you the first few times as you are learning (it is awefully difficult to spin the C4S with the PSM), then i see myself correcting the loose rear before the PSM kicks in, or atleast not screw it up as much as before.
Anyways, atleast I find it usefull and feel safer pushing the envelope of performance in my C4S, I am progressively getting faster, and relying less on the PSM and pretty soon turn off PSM, soon i hope to rotate that rear end throgh the corner entry with some of that trail braking and who knows eventually I may be so smooth I may even get a GT3 for some on the edge fun .

Robert Henriksen

I'd be happy to work with you at a TWS DE - but it'd be early next year. I'll be out of town for the Dec 4/5 PCA DE, so it'd be whatever their next event is - Jan or Feb. Schedule is at www.lsrpca.com

I forget - are you on street tires or R compound w. the 996?

mooty

996's are 'relatively' easy to drive compared to early 911's. like other said, you need to ride with a few fast 911 drivers to see how rear engined cars behave. when they told me THROTTLE will bring you stability, i didn't understand. but after 60 or so laps with various fast 911 junkies, it hit home. and i had very little trouble transitioning from a spec miata (one of the most balanced car) to 996C2 and GT3.

frayed

Thanks all.

Robert, I will take you up on your offer.

Mooty, that's great to hear. What I'm really trying to get a handle on, is whether I have the wherewithall to embark on the 911 learning curve. That is, I'm either going to commit wholeheartedly to learning the chassis or I'll move on to something (but what?). I think I'm going in deep. This is why I wanted to hear from people who have made the transition ot 911s and became fast and skilled in this platform.

OK, would I be insane to pick up a GT3? That is, assuming I drive it prudently and w/i my skill level, would a car that demanding inhibit the learning process? The lapping in the GT3 yesterday continues to haunt me.

mooty

GT3 is both easier and harder to drive well than a normal 996.
it's harder b/c you dont have psm and it's edgier.
it's easier b/c you don't have psm and it's edgier b/c you will feel the car before it lets go. you will feel the car's wishes. but if you didn't hear it's wishes, it will snap on you.

please don't take this wrong as i am still learning to be fast as well.
if you are "practicing" to be fast, i woudn't use the GT3. i track that occasionally. i mostly use my C2. why? on the C2 i run RA1, stock rotors with pagid oranges. in 4500 or so track miles (i drive it on street too), i am on my 5 set of tires, 3rd set of rotors, and 6-8 sets of pads. on GT3, you will most likely be running MSPC, orange or yellows and stock big rotors. all those will cost you more money. if you don't mind and you are preduent at taking instructors out with you then sure. but i can't spend that much money on my consumables ;-)

BrandonH

Hey, I'm a 911 lover too. But who was it (maybe Carroll Smith?) who said of Porsche: "you can't make a racehorse out of a pig... but they sure can make an awfully fast pig." Meaning, I think: a rear engined car is a fundamentally dis-advantaged design. You can learn to maximize it's strengths and minimize weaknesses, else why would the 911 be the most successful race chassis of all time. A 911 can be driven faster than most other cars. But most people can drive most other cars faster than they can drive a 911... (did that come out right?)

mpaton

I'm planning to be at the December LSRPCA DE, so I'd be happy to repeat Robert's offer, but I recall from an earlier thread that PCA events don't work well for you. Maybe Robert or I can work something out.

On the GT3 issue, my opinion is that it's like R compound tires. Both R compound tires and a GT3 will allow you to practice what you need to know at a higher speed. This is counter productive in my opinion. You would probably enjoy a GT3, but it would take you longer to learn on.

If you really care about lap times, then some lower and stiffer suspension would help with that, but I think you've correctly identified the real problem. Front engine rear drive cars will let you away with a lot more than a 911 will. I'll go further and say that I've had other instructors drive my 911 with PSM on,
and the M3 and 944 drivers would get into fights withh PSM as the speeds picked up. This is because the M3 and 944 will let you away with being less smooth. I always thought I knew this, but since I've got a stock 944S2 to track as well, I'm more sure of it.

It's a big shock to the ego (that I worked through) to know that at a quite advanced level, PSM is a very useful tool to verify how smooth a driver you are.

So I'd advise finding an instructor who drives a 996, and who will also drive with PSM on if you ask them to. Evidently we don't all do that. Learn how to turn in gently, learn that the reaction to tail instability is to add power and learn that all of that does mean that you "commit" to corners more than in an M3.

I convinced myself that when learning to track the 911 that seeing I was such a great driver :-) I would adapt to what the 911 required and then see if I enjoyed driving it.

And drive at least 2 half sessions during a weekend with PSM on to see how much faster you can go without triggering it.

Michael Paton
Maverick, Lonestar, Hill Country regions, and now PCA National instructor

Mark in Denver

You guys are making me glad I don't have a "real" Porsche. I'll take my 50/50 balanced non-PSM cars any day.

Mark