frayed

Michael,

One of your instructors insists that the PCA events have changed dramatically from my experience with the group. I will revisit the PCA events and see how things go. I do know two things: I'm gonna have to slow down to go fast in this car, and I may retreat to street tires for a while.

I know I can pick up speed here and there at my current skill level, but I want to be fast and skilled, and not a hack chopping away at the track with PSM on all day. I am pretty comfortable running around the track sliding my M3 around, but not with the 911.

I'm also interested in going back to a RWD platform, and fell in love with the GT3 on-track manners including the wail of its motor. Good stuff.

Robert Henriksen

I know what you mean - I got a ride in a GT3 as well, and it was everything I'd read about the car. That said, if you're having trouble adapting to the rear engine dynamics, you *would* adapt more quickly by working with the C4s/PSM first, then graduate to the GT3. Whether that transition period would be days/weeks/months is entirely your call!

rushing23

Jeff,

Michael would be a very good person to work with in learning to
drive a 996. I can attest that he manages to be wickedly fast, yet
very smooth in his C2. Nice meeting you this weekend, and thanks
for the brewsky--I needed it after all those laps. I'm sure I'll see you
around Bill's shop soon...

frayed

Hey Andy, good meeting you as well. I'm smitten by the siren song of that friggin GT3. It was a nice day yesterday, and particularly nice not having to point buy all those obnoxious Z06s.

Robert, if you teach me all the tricks, you get to drive the GT3 whenever you want. How's that for sweetening the deal?

Robert Henriksen

I think yellow over black, with deviated stitching would be just fine, thank you!

frayed

Roger that.

mpaton

Sounds good. email me sometime in November then, as I'm not yet one of the Advanced instructors who's allowed to jump in any car without asking. But I'll ask, and you can ride with me.

I'll also endorse the idea of autocrossing. When I got my 911, I purposely got a set of 4 front wheels and tires, 205/50-17 and did an autocross with these on all 4 corners, just to see how it handled. Needless to say, don't try that at TWS (as if they'd let you on the track). That smaller size makes everything happen at slower speeds. It's not even that you need to learn to drive it like that, but when you can, it's a fantastic confidence booster to know how the car will react. Especially entering turn 7 at TWS at 105 -110.

Michael

frayed

Understood. Turn 7 at 100 + can be hair raising; T7 to T8 is one of my strengths at TWS. Unfortunately, the carousel ain't.

RJay

I too would endorse the notion of Axing the car. When I bought my old 911, I did so as I figured if I could learn to drive it well, no other decent RWD car (other than perhaps a stock 76 turbo) would be any worry. Having spun a 356 as a kid, being a chicken sh*t and remembering all the talk in my youth of how dangerous the car could be I AXed the car extensively before tracking it.

When in the end I finally took it to the track, I was pretty familiar with how hard I could push it and what happened when I overstepped a bit. Although I managed to have a few moments, I didn't really consider them to be moments until reflecting on things after the session. Ax instincts simply took over and they were non-events. Seat time is king, do it in an environment where you can safely explore your new cars limits.

Robert Henriksen

Huh. While I love T7 at TWS, I've never thought there was a huge amount of time to be gained by pushing super hard through there - short climb up the hill, and it's back on the brakes. I like to scare myself through 8/9 & take the run down the hill into the carousel. If you hit the *early*, outside turn-in for 8 you can carry a wicked amount of speed though the 'corkscrew' (apologies to the real corkscrew at LS).

But there's more time in 6 than 7.

Bob Rouleau

Jeff - I'm not sure I want to be the contrarian in this group of experts but, here's a slightly different view.

1) People have been learning to drive and enjoy 911's and front engined sports cars for a long time before electronic assists like PSM, traction control and ABS. Just because a GT3 has nothing but ABS does not make it into a "widow maker". As others have pointed out, the nastiest habits of the 911 have been mostly tamed starting with the 993. The 996 chassis is better still.

2) If you drive your GT3 the way your instructor tells you, you won't have a problem. Brake in a straight line, enter the turn with constant speed (maintenance throttle) and accelerate smoothly from the apex as you unwind the wheel.
Follow those instructions and you can lap a GT3 quickly forever without putting a wheel wrong.

Here's where I stick my neck out .. if you follow those directions you can drive any car safely and quickly without a risk. I don't care if it is a Corvette, a Viper a 944 or a GT2.

If you break the rules then things get more complicated. A 944 (951,968) is the sweetest handling car Porsche has ever built. It will tolerate mistakes and forgive you. So, if you break the rules, you might not notice. I gather from comments in this thread that BMW M3's are also benign in this respect.

One of the appealing things about a 911 is that it will tell you that you made a mistake. I believe this is the basis for the legend that 911 drivers are a special breed. They've had to learn lessons in car balance and finesse that other makes and models don't teach. That's not to say that a 911 driver is better than an experienced 944 pilot. It's just that a 911 driver has to be good to make his car go fast in the corners.

Still if you follow the basic rules you won't go wrong no matter what you drive.

As we get better (having been taught by the car) we can (and you will) play with the rules - trail brake to rotate the car in slow corners, tolerate some power oversteer and counter steering in sweepers. It's normal to expect that by the time you want to push the limits you'll have learned how to balance your car, how a gentle push on the gas pedal adds grip at the back of the car and a gentle lift cures the understeer. Pretty soon, you're chasing Larry Herman!

To close, follow the rules - learn the lessons your car will teach you and enjoy a fabulous car.

Robert Henriksen

Uh, yeah, what Bob said.

In yellow.

Lothar

Not to make light of your serious discussion, which I am enjoying very much, but...

I have found the answer to learning to drive a rear engine car with confidence:

Don't ever drive anything else. All of my high performance driving has been in a 911. As they say, "There is no substitute". Also, ignorance is bliss. I love the three 911's I have owned and I would not trade my learning curve for that of any other car.

These cars have awesome rear grip when set up properly. I love driving with instructors who are not 911 drivers. They are absolutely wowed by the grip in the rear under power. The Miata, Rx-7, Alfa and BMW driving istructors I have had are all jeolous when they get out of the car.

DrJupeman

This sounds about right! I went from a 951 to a 914 and learned A LOT more in the 914. I now drive a 911 (mmm, turbo - and not one of those tamed beast models... ) and believe I am only able to pilot this monster reasonably competently because I learned to "drive by the book" in a 914.

I have a good friend who started his track career in a 951, also (same car, but that's a different story...). When the car broke mid-event once he borrowed a friend's 914 (same 914, but that's a different story...). I went for a ride with him to make sure he didn't get into trouble. By the end of the run he realized his first year of driving hadn't taught him everything he had thought. He quickly bought a 914 and climbed the learning curve very quickly. He spun 7 (!) times one season while learning to break old bad habits (yes, he's a lucky SOB not to have hit anything) but now he is a very skilled driver.

Larry Herman

That sounds about right! My first track car was a 914 and I drove it for 6 years. Bought a 911 Carrera and it took me a year to get around the track faster than I did in my 100 hp 914. And talk about a great learning platform. Sweet as can be at 8/10s, kind of tricky at 9/10s and downright nasty at 10/10s. You learn do it right, or get it towed out of the weeds.