DrJupeman

Yup, that's a 914!

Mike in Chi

Some great advice, and if you have a chance to get Robert in the car, jump on it. He's a terrific driver.

How long did it take you to get down to those times in your Bimmer? Give the p-car a little time.

An alternative would be PDE, or PDE advanced if they'll let you skip the initial course. I think they would get you very comfortable in two days.

Robert Henriksen

Thanks, Mike. My experience at PDE might have been different from others, as the instructor I had for the lead/follow ontrack (as opposed to the exercises like slalom, lane change, etc) was about 20 y.o. from the Panoz school, and didn't seem comfortable with lettting us go over maybe 8.5/10ths. I'd had a year or so of DEs under my belt as well, so I felt pretty held back. While I *did* learn some things at that pace (first & foremost about finally RELAXING behind the wheel at some kind of speed), I'd have been disappointed if I was the one who'd written the check for the event.

There's no question that at least in Tx, the PCA DEs are much more tightly controlled events than those of other organizations. That's very comforting for beginners, and sometimes not so much for students with more experience, or more inclination for racing versus a structured educational experience. I did get curious, and read up on some things that've been said over at Roadfly about LSR DEs over the last couple of years, and something occured to me.

The predominate car of PCA is a 911. I dare say a sizeable portion of the instructor core has, or has had, a 911, a rear engined car. One of the key points of emphasis in the curriculum is smoothness. Important to get to the most out of any car, but especially important early on in a rear-engined one. It looks like your focus during DEs in your BMW has been more on achieving lap times & bragging rights than on building a skill set, and that usually means pushing the car hard & being a bit out of sorts. That 996 will really sing for you & with you when you readjust your thinking to going back & re-focusing on core skills, and let the lap times come naturally as a consequence. I would hope droving a rear engine car may have helped you understand a bit better why PCA preaches smoothness as much as it does.

Keep in mind I'm not defending any particular people, personalities, or incidents that may have occured; I don't want to find myself standing up for the Texas ColorChange.

When I finally expanded my horizons beyond just DEs in my 911, I went racing in SRF. An SRF has (wait for it...) the same weight distribution as a 911. I think a lot of people who didn't know me were surprised at how high I was qualifying. Then they were even more surprised that someone running in the top 5 of a race didn't know#$@%%!! about racecraft - but that's another story.

trumperZ06

Hhmmmm.... obnoxious huh!

Welcome aboard!!!

These guys are a lot more technical (Knowlegable) than those over at the Bimmer board! Lots of good stuff here. Have fun figuring out your new TOY !!!

Mike in Chi

Robert

I had that Haywood guy, and he liked to go fast. Even tho I had 15 races at that point, I still enjoyed it, and thought it worthwhile.

JCP911S

Any well set-up car can be fast if you drive it properly, but the M3 and the 911 are probably at the most opposite ends of the spectrum... not surprising that the 911 feels foreign.

In a balanced car you can go in a bit too hot, and lift off the throttle or dial in more front slip angle to scrub off speed... the car my push wide a bit, but will typically not spin....do either of those in a 911 and you will never (intentionally) do it again.

911 requires more of a "slow in/fast out" technique where you reduce entry speed, take a slightly later apex, get on the throttle earlier, and go for more exit speed.

In fact, this is the proper way to drive any RWD car... its just that it is more exaggerated in the 911, the payback for getting it right is greater, and the result of getting it wrong is nastier... you must commit to the turn more, so it takes more practice to push to the limit.

Is the 911 better? Who knows... its what I have so its what I drive.

BTW... 4WD and FWD are like moonships to me... no idea how to drive them, so this may or may not apply

Robert Henriksen

Yup, I'm jealous. Hurley doesn't stand any pussyfooting around. That would have been much better than the rookie I had. Nice kid, just too conservative.

joey bagadonuts

Yes, it's the same approach. You probably need to trail brake the AWD cars a bit deeper since early, aggressive throttle can cause you to shoot wide of the apex but my approach is not much different from the "slow in/fast out" style you've described, JCP.

sprbxr

Frayed
Having switched from an E36 M3 to a 964 and now into a 91 C2T, I can identify with your issue. Unfortunatly, the M3 is so easy to drive quickly you can get sloppy and it won't bite you. The "slow in-fast out" approach is the way to go in a 911. It took me a while, but you will learn to keep your foot firmly planted once you commit to application of throttle. The biggest difference I felt when I made the switch was:

ROTATION

The 911 wants to rotate on turn in. The M3 has to be coaxed to rotate. YOu can use this to your advantage once you get used to it. I have not driven a C4, but I imagine it probably understeers a little more than a C2. It will just take you some time to get used to the characteristics of the new car.

Greg Fishman

Also have to account for the difference in the 993 and later AWD systems compared to the 964.

frayed

I think this is exactly right, as are JCP's comments above.

Vince5

Hi,

Having owned an e39 M5 and other bimmers over the years and now a 9643,3 Turbo I may be can give a few comments

The big eye openner for me on how to handle the rear weight bias came while having a passenger lap with a former local champ at the wheel of my 964C2T. Slow in, rotate the car on the brakes, very light trail braking (I am not convinced it's optimal with a mono turbo car because of the lag so I don't use it often), then hard on the gaz as early as possible when you know you WILL reach the late apex, you can go much harder on the gaz than in a balanced car.

Then the magic moment comes the power hits the rear wheels, she sits hard on her back wheels with a slight drift, the weight helping the rear wheels to get traction and as the turbo spools you get catapulted out of the turn and into the next bend where you can start all over again. There isn't much in life that beats this feeling !

The Bimmers are very easy to balance in a drift, weight distribution makes it relatively harmless to be a bit to aggressive on the throttle, you will handle provoqued or accidental oversteer easily. The car will hardly bite you, I even take my 525 estate on the snow for some slides during the winter she is so easy to controll . The Porsche is more tricky and I think you need someone to show you how to do it to accelerate the learning process.

Earlierapex

Jeff,
I've driven and raced 911s and 930s, but have been racing a rental e36 M3 for the last couple of years in PBOC. I'm exactly bassackwards to what you are asking, but I've driven both cars a lot. BTW, a rental racecar is pretty sweet. You just show up and drive.

The M3 is cake by comparison, and it does have some significant advantages over a 911 (namely that you can trail brake it MUCH easier and 90% of real competitive race passes are made going INTO corners). However, it isn't as much fun.

Driving a 911 fast requires a lot of faith in the traction of that rear end. It's hard to learn because everyone says they spin so easily that you are afraid to approach the edge of the envelope for fear of snap oversteer. So you've got to go and do some snap oversteering (a wet skidpad or AX are both great).

Eventually, you'll get a feel for how to control that rear end and you'll be slinging it into the corners with the best of them. Driving a 911 really fast almost feels more like a rally driving style ("feels" like it, you don't really intentionally slide the rear a lot, but going fast in a 911 "feels" like the rear is going to slide). You throw the balance of the car onto that rear end and let it work its magic on the back side of the turn, and, incredibly, the harder you hammer the throttle, the harder it bites.

Believe me, the rear of a 911 will stick, you've just got to get used to it and trust it. The irony is that it doesn't oversteer from loading the rear, it oversteers from unloading it. Get the car rotated early in a turn (late apex, also this is easy in a 911 because the rotate very quickly), get the weight on that rear end and drop the hammer (don't do this in a decreasing radius turn the first time).

Have fun.

-dc

Geo

Is it anybody's?

I've tried all sorts of lines in that thing and always feel like I SUCK. In the end I just try for a good exit.

A little note about exit of the carousel....

When I was at a PCA DE a few weeks ago to meet and greet, I was surprised that 75% of the drivers I observed really really BOTCHED the exit (not that I don't often enough). Specifically they weren't getting the car straight for the 10-20 yards between the incredibly late apex and the turn-in for the next corner. I found during my SCCA school that an early turn-in is a great way to kill your lap times.

So, if you DE at TWS, pay attention to the exit of the carousel.