ProCoach

On the contrary. Now, people who have the money to do this prize their time, perhaps more than they used to.

Most of the folks I see getting in (or getting back in after raising a family/running a business/building a profession) don't have the knowledge or the time to build or tinker with their cars. So the manufacturers have stepped in and said "buy a factory prepared car from us."

So, Elan NPT01, Mazda MX-5 Cup (many generations), Radical, BMW 235iR, 240iR, M2CSR, M3 STR, M4 GT4, Porsche 911 GT3 Cup (many generations), 911 GT3 R, 981 GT4 CS, 718 GT4 CS, 718 GT4 RS CS, Ford FP350R, all the GT4 cars from Astons, Mercedes, GM Performance are all customer focused cars.

Twenty years ago, I stayed busy building competition cars from street car chassis. A lot of us learned our craft that way. Now? People would rather have turn key and the transport and support shops don't mind that a bit.

What's crazy is that we've never seen so many Cups (including 992) and ClubSports, M2CSR, M4 GT4 and other factory built cars doing laps at DE's and track days.

I'm now seeing people begin to run older GT3 chassis. You know, the ones that require a minimum of four folks, and usually more than that, to run them.

So no, the explosive growth of track day/DE and club/entry level pro racing is NOT due to cheaper cars being run elsewhere than PCA Club Racing...

ProCoach

I'm still with you. I am making the same calculus myself. Sure, I'll hire the guys at my old shop to take me to Lime Rock, but I'll prep/transport/support my own car here at VIR, Summit Point and Roebling Road.

No more all-nighters for me though. Got months of those over the last couple decades, thank you very much!

Matt Romanowski

I'm starting to see people who are insulated from the expense problems start saying that some races/cars/events are expensive and skip them. On the other side, I see people running programs that are over $10,000 an hour just in engine expense! It's an odd dynamic right now and I think the biggest thing is perceived value. If people perceive the great value, they are in. If they don't see that, then they bail out pretty quick.

Overall, I know very few people the the expense of an event doesn't play some part in their decision. Heck, look at the most popular cars at the most expensive membership tracks to see what people are doing.

Nizer

110%! A big factor in why I stepped away from PCA Club Racing. I got sick of getting passed under yellows with no penalty enforced by stewards, even when video evidence was provided. Who wants to race in with an organization that encourages rule breaking by turning a blind eye. This also goes to the perceived value factor raised by Matt.

Don't be silly. PCNA can't even manage their dealers, let alone trying to heard a bunch of club racers and the respective zones.

Agreed, but I wonder how much of it relates to a hollowing out of the economic middle, which accelerated substantially post-Covid? Perhaps PCA Club racing is increasingly caught in this middle-ground, no-mans land.

Critical factor IMO. A typical three-day PCA race is really a five-day event when you include prep, transport, and loading and unloading. That's cost and time away from family. Throw in the fact that as many 20 min sessions are marred by yellow flags as not, and you start to ask yourself if it's really worth it. Alternatively, you can a buy car - street or race - and participate in any number of one or two day track days that offer open track and open passing, all with much less risk of damaging your car.

I find it interesting that LRP's compressed schedule club race has already attracted eight 992 Cups. Maybe there's a message in there.

Jas0nn

I personally have zero interest in anything except racing, anymore. The few DE days that I squeeze in each year are specifically to test for upcoming races ...

I'd go so far as to say that if I had to stop racing, I probably wouldn't go back to just doing HPDE.

Racing isn't for everyone - and it doesn't have to be. But I think for some, it's "everything." This should be the PCA Club Racing target, imo.

Nizer

i get it and there will always be guys like us. I’m just saying there are way more track options - racing and non-racing - than existed 20, even 10 years ago.

Adam144

I see what you're saying entirely and all of that is absolutely true. I am speaking from what I see from the collective within my PCA region I suppose.

As an active member for several years on my PCA region's track team as well as being the current Track Chair, I see the increase in expensive machinery coming to HPDE events. The distance travelled, the crews.

I've also run the HPDE component of a PCA race weekend and experienced that atmosphere. (For reference i'm in my late 30's).

I know more drivers in our region's HPDE program who have raced cheap cars in Lucky Dog races than I do PCA racers including myself. And many of these drivers own some very expensive Porsches.

No one is interested in wallet racing. The format and value for the money isn't there for me. I get more run time per dollar in a car at a two day HPDE than I would at a PCA event weekend.

As far as competition goes it seems to be whoever wants to bring new slicks for each session.

For me I have a wife and a toddler. I oversee and attend 6 two day weekends a summer plus two or three Lucky Dog endurance race weekends. I haven't wanted to add more to my schedule, haven't wanted to have to attend the race school to get a license adding another weekend to my pile.

For $1200-$1500CAD all in I will get accomodation, meals, fuel, two sets of 200tw tires, and around 4 hours of seat time in my E30 over two days with Lucky Dog. It's laid back, no contact, very few egos, great commraderie and a lot of fun.

For $190 plus fuel and a few consumables I can run an HPDE at Mosport for two days. It's the best value. Four 20 min sessions a day each day.

I don't hear the same drive time values or cost comparisons to be competitive in PCA club racing, that's why it hasn't been attractive to me. And the lower attendence hasn't helped.
This is despite me being a racer with access to 3 Porsche race cars.

We saw a reduciton in U.S. driver PCA club racing attendance at Mosport post Covid with drivers citing the border crossing being a hassle.

Honestly, one of the bigger detractors I think is people just aren't that competitive compared to how they used to be. Blame participation trophies or whatever you want but if someone is actually competitive they want recognition. If you aren't competitive you won't see the value in it. If you are competitive you're only beating the 4 other cars that showed up in your class it won't feel like an accomplishment. Competitive people don't usually stay at the PCA Club racing level. Most go on to race another series like GT3 Cup or Radicals.

I don't know. More run time, different class structures, some incentive or prize might help. It's clear the same old same old isn't working anymore.

Jas0nn

Don't tell that to so many of the PCA drivers I know! I race against some very very competitive drivers - who are fast by lots of measures - and the majority of them have been racing in PCA for decades ...

Adam144

Sorry, should clarify that i'm not speaking in absolutes nor am I saying that's how it should be or that PCA club racing doesn't have regions with great rewarding competition. I'm sure it does.

I'm just saying that's been my observation with my local region.

LuigiVampa

You mean those cars around me weren't really trying to win the race? It sure felt like it!

Adam144

Lol, I'm saying there are many who race for the fun of it and aren't super competitive. There are also those that race who know their car isn't competitive and simply enjoy the drive.

It's not that they aren't "trying to win the race", the majority are. Gotta be super careful with any wording, always someone wanting to pick it apart haha.

LuigiVampa

People picking apart wording on Rennlist? That happens? Crazy talk!

993944S2

We saw a reduction in U.S. driver PCA club racing attendance at Mosport post Covid with drivers citing the border crossing being a hassle.

Honestly, one of the bigger detractors I think is people just aren't that competitive compared to how they used to be. Blame participation trophies or whatever you want but if someone is actually competitive they want recognition. If you aren't competitive you won't see the value in it. If you are competitive you're only beating the 4 other cars that showed up in your class it won't feel like an accomplishment. Competitive people don't usually stay at the PCA Club racing level. Most go on to race another series like GT3 Cup or Radicals.

I don't agree with these two statements. Covid did impact Mosport participation, but more so was the migration to the NJMP event. This also speaks to your comments to people being competitive. The Mosport track is way better than NJMP, but I choose the latter specifically because of the competition. My competitors go to NJ, thus so do I. 911 Cup, SPB, GTB-1 are extremely competitive. I've been club racing for about 20 years. I don't know a single driver that said they left because of lack of competition.

ckkrause

I was chosen in the lottery to race my SPB at RR#7. I was struck by the attitude of the National guys there. It felt as if they were throwing us a bone in "letting" us race.... In fact, the whole process was very poorly run and felt like an after thought from day one.

-Chuck

Adam144

Your experience may differ from mine, that doesn't dismiss what I've said. The thread is asking a question. I'm giving my answer as someone who has attended every HPDE his region has offered since 2012, worked on the track team since 2018, overseen the HPDE event at the club race, and am the acting Track Chair.

I'm also young, and a potential customer.

YMMV, do with that information what you will. I don't quite understand how you disagree with my statement regarding competition. Your response is a direct example of why my perception is what it is regarding my region's club race. They're going elsewhere. (i.e. low numbers, or the entire premise of this thread).

Another reason my regional PCA race isn't great for me (personally) is it's on the August Long weekend and I usually have prior engagements. I also understand this was a benefit to Americans for having the extra day off for travel.