quickboxster

There is a ride along now. "Track Experience".

Speeds5

DMTD has only a handful of DE events per year. PCA has tens and tens across all of their regions. Which brings my point earlier. If PCA was run as a national organization they can consolidate the events better and can promote them better regionally. I alluded to this earlier but on the same day VIR race was on(with a DE), NY Metro had a DE event. It makes both events suffer. Regions are competing with each other for DE participants and that’s not good for business as a whole.

If these were coordinated nationally it wouldn’t happen. It also promotes a cohesive strategy to grow DE participants and future racers.

PCA club racing offers a lot of value. I don’t think the club is doing a good job promoting that and making people see it. Also the structure of the PCA is not helping. I’m not even sure if PCA decision makers even realize they have a problem. Which is a problem in itself.

ProCoach

Before anyone thinks I am dumping on PCA Club Racing as a concentrated crash fest, I'm not. No one goes into a weekend thinking "I'm going to have contact."

There is a disconnect between the stated non-contact objectives presented to those coming in in the Rookie Meetings and the on-track behavior of some folks.

Again, single-car or multi-car, everyone shares a responsibility to a) drive within their limits (or not push so hard if they don't KNOW what the limit is) and b) leave racing room.

Have never seen consistent incident fault finding or even consistent penalty application across similar incidents over the last fourteen years. I think this is down to varying criteria, harried volunteers and stewards and changing methodologies by the leadership to "streamline" incident review.

I remember being blown away by the concept of the "rub-out." In my mind, if you touched someone, it was your mistake.

But, I raced in an event where we had thirty seconds lap time difference in the race group, an all-comers Enduro and an Australian Pursuit race with sixty cars from 1:55-3:00 lap times for half an hour at VIR and we had TWO car-to-car incidents over three days. Allan Friedman was racing his IROC clone.

BMWCCA Club Racing had a fair bit (looked like 8-10% of the entry) of damage, tho. Slightly higher entry of cars and less damage than Zone 2 Club Race a week ago.

Speeds5

Rub out rule was a problem. Accidents have proliferated since its implementation. That should go away and I heard it’s going away although not sure how true it is. If there’s contact maybe someone needs a 13 and let them really think about it for the next 13 months. Promotes some discipline I think. I can tell you my kids would probably burn the house down if every time they did something wrong I’d ignore it.

ProCoach

The GREATEST value to me of PCA Club Racing compared to other series is track time. It's a great value, generally. As long as the sessions aren't shortened or races run under too many laps of FCY.

Also, the camaraderie of the SPB, SP2/SP3, SPC, GTB1 and SPC, most notably the 911Cup, encourages the best from people in Club racing.

ProCoach

You know, THAT is how it started. And there was almost NO contact. Ever.

Somehow, all orgs running 13/13 have moved away from the original application ideal.

Long post add but I wrote this for Grassroots Motorsports Magazine in 1998 after a very messy Walter Mitty Challenge at Road Atlanta that year. Not much has changed.

In the last several years marque specific and vintage racing programs have experienced a marked increase in the number of chargeable incidents on the racetrack, both of the single car and multi-car variety. This for many is not acceptable. As we see an increase in both the number of events and the number of entries per event, it is likely that this problem will increase unless steps are put into place to curb the dreaded "red mist." The two most effective measures of controlling this downward spiral consist of education and the threat of penalty, including exclusion, from single or multiple events. In this article, my focus is education, with penalties reserved for those inevitable few that just "don't get it."

The tenets governing conduct in the early days were simple. The "13/13 Rule" was clearly stated and understood by the participants in the literal form. "If you are involved in an incident sufficient to cause damage to your car or any other car, you will be prohibited from participating for the rest of the weekend, prohibited from entering the next event, and placed on probation for thirteen months. If you are involved in another such incident during your probation, you will be suspended for thirteen months." Certainly not the sort of result anyone in the burgeoning sport would wish for… Later, the statement was modified to include the words "at fault," so that either the benevolent dictator running the event or a committee of the driver's peers could assign and adjudicate blame upon the poor unfortunate who suffered either brain fade or road rage. When marque clubs such as Porsche Club of America and the BMW Car Club of America began their "Club Racing" programs, the vintage philosophy as interpreted at that time was adopted, with specific mention of the "13/13 Rule." Unfortunately, with the rapid rise in the number of vintage events came a corresponding increase in incidents. In order to make the sport more friendly and inviting, a number of the vintage sanctioning organizations adopted "points" systems, or graded infractions up to and including probation and suspension, many simply changing again the wording of the rule to read: "…damage to your car or any other car, you may be prohibited from participating…". One of the larger sanctioning bodies on the East Coast publicly stated at a meeting of the Vintage Motorsports Council that they would not report incidents to the shared list that the VMC maintains and circulates among the member clubs, because "racing is racing". Failed reasoning leads to a breakdown in behavior…

I am of the firm opinion that people will behave and perform in a manner consistent with clearly laid out expectations. I am involved with numerous "orientation" programs that focus more on instilling and inculcating the "vintage spirit" to people who have already had racing experience (some of it significant) or are graduates of professional schools. My job is to move people towards focusing on a higher plane, to overcome the raw emotional, competitive "hunter-gatherer" instinct that makes them see holes in traffic that just aren't there, to make them take a breath and relax instead of cursing a backmarker under their breath, to make them think instead of going off *****-nilly and causing a hazard where none yet exists. Harder than you might think, because for some the desire to win overcomes the desire to take part, and that is where vintage differs most greatly from SCCA and other forms of club racing.

First, newcomers must realize that in vintage there exists a place for everyone who shares the interest in getting out and enjoying old cars. If someone wishes to bring a road legal Triumph TR-4 with a full windscreen and interior (as well as a roll-bar, fuel cell and driver equipment) that passes the safety requirements of the sanctioning organization, they have just as much right to buzz around Daytona at a sedate pace as the torrid progress of an ex-Logan Blackburn National Championship winning MGB! There are so many classes, so many levels of preparation, so many driver experience levels that if it is a level playing field that you're after, you won't find it here…Often, innovative classing leads to excellent racing, as in the perennial favorite Dodge Vintage Festival at Lime Rock Park on Labor Day. A benevolent "dictator" classes cars according to the potential of the car/driver combination (lap times within a narrow range) ensuring close competition and an exciting show. With new people joining the "circus" every event, there is always someone to race with. As in most forms of racing, there exists a small group of people who consistently run at the front followed by a large group comprising the middle of the field, then a couple of stragglers (mechanical or otherwise) who often provide excitement for the leaders.

Second, blocking, dive-bomb passes and other unfriendly maneuvers have no place in the vintage scene. I define blocking for the group as "altering the placement of your car more than once to deprive another car racing room." Again stressing that the watchword is cooperation, not confrontation; to weave back and forth across the front straight at Lime Rock is inexcusable, as well as embarrassing to the lead (in the beginning) car. Racing is a test of skill, vintage racing a test of skill and manners…The point where the overtaking car's reach overextends their grasp and inevitable contact ensues is usually the result of a failed "dive-bomb" pass. The art of passing takes years of practice to develop, the fact that most drivers involved in a passing incident have two entirely different stories surrounding the circumstances of their contact shows just how completely emotion can overwhelm reason. A "dive-bomb" pass occurs when the overtaking car pulls out from a significant distance back and by charging into the braking zone, brakes impossibly late from an impossibly high entry speed. Suddenly realizing that a minor misjudgment is about to turn into a monumental disaster, the driver of the overtaking car locks up the brakes and slides into the back/side/front of the blissfully unaware leader. In SCCA, this would be considered an "overoptimistic" pass, in vintage it's not acceptable behavior. In building an experience base, the need to identify, analyze and form an action plan on how best to pass is crucial. The best way to do this is to study the person you wish to pass over the course of several laps. Obviously, where closing speeds are significant this task is easier. As the speed differential narrows, heightened awareness and a calm, measured assessment is required before committing to a pass that may or may not succeed. In vintage or marque club racing, you are likely to see the same folks on track from event to event. Most of the time, the practice times will establish a particular order that will continue throughout the weekend. Rarely will someone have a "light bulb" come on in the middle of the weekend and magically find several seconds, so race at your level and be happy. Over the course of several years (and several plateaus), I would expect to pick up some time at the same events from year to year, but I discourage newcomers from becoming "married" to a particular lap time as an expectation or guarantee of performance. Too many variables exist. Very often newcomers to the sport wonder vocally why someone in a similar car could be so much quicker than they are. I respond by saying that speed is a matter of planning and comfort, comfort with yourself and your abilities, your car, the track and of course, the friends that you'll be racing with on that track. I stress the "internal" contest, the moving of individual benchmarks, the marking of progress and improvement. Racing is a mind game…

Third, where we finish is relatively unimportant. Some clubs, such as the Vintage Sports Car Club of America, eschew trophies, grid positions and even qualifying times, thus institutionalizing the philosophy that the preservation and use of the car is more important than the selfish whims of the driver… The Florida Region of the SCCA Vintage Group hands trophies out to everyone who enters, to foster the idea of togetherness and camaraderie. Does this take away from the contest? Anyone who has seen Tivvy Shenton and Bob Girvin doing battle at the VSCCA Spring Sprints would swear that they were racing for the "Winston Million!" And they don't touch! Charlie Kolb piloting his Chevron around Sebring with nothing less than the skill he demonstrated at the same venue thirty-five years ago! You don't see this at a Club Racing Regional. The rest of us are not likely to be so gifted or talented as to rewrite history, let alone as experienced. I stress that many of the cars we drive have made their mark many years ago and nothing we are likely to do with them in a current series will change history. We are "weekend warriors" and we must remember that the pleasure of taking part must exceed the desire to win at all costs. This attitude has been strained recently in not only vintage, but also Porsche Club Racing and BMW Car Club of America Club Racing as well. Peer pressure is a very effective tool, and there are many other more appropriate venues to "make a splash" than vintage. The vintage spirit is just that, the desire to enjoy our cars, on and off the track with friends. At vintage events, far too many newcomers are carried away with large transporters, uniformed crew, large entourages merely to learn that they are missing the point. One of the more successful programs in terms of retaining the flavor of racing for fun is the BMWCCA's program, with Scott Hughes and Don McCoin doing an exceptional job. VSCCA and CSRG are also well practiced in maintaining the proper perspective. More importantly, VSCCA doesn't suffer for a lack of entries despite having the most conservative eligibility and preparation rules…

Fourth, the final expectation that I stress in orientation is that under no circumstances is contact desirable, acceptable or even forgiven. Even if the sanctioning body fails to penalize a driver for going off and tapping the guard rail because they entered the corner too hot and ran out of road, that failure does not relieve responsibility from the driver. Even if the sanctioning body assigns "points" for a minor "coming together," contact is wrong. The best way to explain this to the group is to assign personal responsibility for each and every action that occurs behind the wheel. Single car incidents indicate that someone lost concentration, misjudged their car placement or speed, jerked the wheel or otherwise ran out of talent! Stressing constantly the importance of building speed gradually throughout the weekend, culminating in peak performance on Sunday afternoon, should be the goal of every racer. Going out Friday or Saturday morning with the idea of releasing pent-up emotions or psychologically "playing" with others in the group or class has no place in vintage or marque club racing. Plenty of this thinking exists where the level of competition is much higher and cars are looked upon as tools, extensions of the driver to be used up and thrown away in the quest for more personal recognition. Personal responsibility is facing up and measuring constantly whether or not the risk outweighs the reward. Many participants, attending only large events once or twice a year, present a wide disparity in speed or skill. It is your responsibility as "the loose nut behind the wheel" to plan and act in a manner that ensures your own safety and the safety of those around you.

The recent efforts of the Vintage Motorsport Council to fund an instructor training program for the benefit of member clubs is welcome and important. The institution by HSR of "The Winner's Circle" seminars led by E. Paul Dickinson as well SVRA's continuing efforts with the development of their "Driver's Orientation" and "Chalk Talk" programs are but a few ways that vintage sanctioning and marque club racing programs can show that they are serious about driver development. The clear delineation of expectations raises the bar for all of the participants. VSCDA's Spring Driving School series is well known and popular program, even though it includes no track time at all! Most importantly, sanctioning bodies need to reach out to the experienced competitor, to periodically remind them why they are here, and if through a pattern of bad behavior demonstrate that they don't "get it," need to enforce to rules as written. This applies also to car preparation, but that is a whole new story.

Matt Romanowski

This has been a problem for the 26 years I've been in PCA. Each region is doing what they think is best for their program and collectively they suffer. Now, some regions work together really well and promote both, but that is not the norm in my experience.

Veloce Raptor

Absolutely agree on both points

Jas0nn

Couple sorta-related thoughts ...

1. Thank you to everyone who has paid any kind of compliment to the work we're doing to grow CUP these past few seasons. I just want a great place to race a car that I love! But its still nice to hear after spending so much time (and money) and more time on it ...

2. Almost everyone at Club Racing is a volunteer; I believe there is only one person who is actually paid for their work. There seems to be a clear consensus that things could improve. I totally agree with that. There have been some great suggestions - and I think they all come from a place of love for the Club and a desire to see it continue to give us the opportunity to race the cars we love.

But I don't think anyone volunteers as much time as our stewards, scruts and racing leadership do without that same spirit!! So if they're reading, I think its worth expressing a little gratitude for their work - Thank you! - while reiterating that there are several racers (count me in that list) who are willing to offer whatever skills/time they have to try and help ...

LuigiVampa

Too late! Everyone who participated in this thread is getting a 13.

Jas0nn

Luigi made everyone do it.

ProCoach

PCADECHAIR

Actually, there are several ways to get newbies on track in the 2023 / 2024 Minimum Standards. Check out Section 9 (and Section 9E) for options. Section https://www.pca.org/drivers-educatio...nimum-Standard

There is nothing at the PCA National level limiting HPDE events to non-members, nor non-Porsche marques.

FWIW, my PCA National DE Committee spent a portion of our biennial in-person meeting last month talking about the bridge between DE and Club Racing. We came up with a number of things the Club Racing side could do to open up the funnel with the HPDE drivers, as well as things the HPDE side could do as well. We also discussed the obstacles faced and hammered out ideas on overcoming them.

- Mia Walsh, PCA National HPDE Chair hpdechair@pca.org

ExMB

I think you are mistaken. AFAIK only BMWCCA has a national requirement that one has to be a member in order to participate in one of their DE events. Regions in my area cooperate with PCA regions and have waved that membership requirement since PCA didn't charge extra in this case.

Caveat:
a) I have seen other PCA regions charge extra for not being a PCA member
b) I have seen that at least one PCA regions asked participants to become an associate member (small added fee) of their region in order to participate in their DE event. That includes other PCA regions.

LuigiVampa

You are correct and I had it wrong - our region requires PCA membership to drive with us at LRP. It is not a national requirement.