Lime Rock next week!
03-26-2004, 11:37 AM
#1
Race Director
Thread Starter
Lime Rock next week!
Finally, the track season begins for me next week! NNJR will be at Lime Rock April 1-2. Anyone from here going?
My goals are the following:
1. Focus on brake management Based the discussions here about late braking, early braking, over-braking, I have decided to pay more attention to various type of braking, and make some slight changes to my technique to see if it makes a difference.
2. The downhill: I wish to try a faster approach to this scary fun corner - just wonder if I have the guts to fly through there!
3. I really need to be aware that I will not be able to drive to the same level as the last event of the season - the winter months make us all rusty, and I need to be careful not to over-drive the first event!
Hope to see some of you up there ! Look me up! (# 142)
-Zoltan.
My goals are the following:
1. Focus on brake management Based the discussions here about late braking, early braking, over-braking, I have decided to pay more attention to various type of braking, and make some slight changes to my technique to see if it makes a difference.
2. The downhill: I wish to try a faster approach to this scary fun corner - just wonder if I have the guts to fly through there!
3. I really need to be aware that I will not be able to drive to the same level as the last event of the season - the winter months make us all rusty, and I need to be careful not to over-drive the first event!
Hope to see some of you up there ! Look me up! (# 142)
-Zoltan.
03-26-2004, 01:48 PM
#3
Burning Brakes
I'm going to be there tomorrow! Nah! Nah!
I hope the weather holds up, the weathermen seemed to be very confused the past couple days. If it rains, at least I'll get a great chance to learn throttle control(especially coming on boost!).
Z, you didn't get a chance to check out the car the other night! I heard you had to run back to work. Maybe on next Monday's tech for Pocono you can check it out.
Anybody have any advice on a newbie at Lime Rock? Gear choices? Turns to watch out for? A g-sum to shoot for?
03-26-2004, 02:59 PM
#4
Nordschleife Master
Z-man,
Don't forget the bumps on "no name straight" and "the downhill" get worse after each winter.
I'll be there on 3/31 if you are interested in longer run sessions than NNJR we still have room.
Don't forget the bumps on "no name straight" and "the downhill" get worse after each winter.
I'll be there on 3/31 if you are interested in longer run sessions than NNJR we still have room.
03-26-2004, 03:17 PM
#5
Race Director
Thread Starter
Originally posted by Geoffrey
Z-man,
Don't forget the bumps on "no name straight" and "the downhill" get worse after each winter.
I'll be there on 3/31 if you are interested in longer run sessions than NNJR we still have room.
Z-man,
Don't forget the bumps on "no name straight" and "the downhill" get worse after each winter.
I'll be there on 3/31 if you are interested in longer run sessions than NNJR we still have room.
(The joys of driving on track with a stock suspension!)You will post back on Wednesday night about the track conditions, right!?
Thanks for the invite - an extra day would be ideal!! But the powers that be here at work barely let me take Thurs & Fri off.
-Z-man.
03-26-2004, 03:33 PM
#6
Originally posted by Geoffrey
Z-man,
Don't forget the bumps on "no name straight" and "the downhill" get worse after each winter.
Z-man,
Don't forget the bumps on "no name straight" and "the downhill" get worse after each winter.
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03-26-2004, 11:28 PM
#8
Re: Lime Rock next week!
Originally posted by Z-man
My goals are the following:
1. Focus on brake management Based the discussions here about late braking, early braking, over-braking, I have decided to pay more attention to various type of braking, and make some slight changes to my technique to see if it makes a difference.
2. The downhill: I wish to try a faster approach to this scary fun corner - just wonder if I have the guts to fly through there!
3. I really need to be aware that I will not be able to drive to the same level as the last event of the season - the winter months make us all rusty, and I need to be careful not to over-drive the first event!
My goals are the following:
1. Focus on brake management Based the discussions here about late braking, early braking, over-braking, I have decided to pay more attention to various type of braking, and make some slight changes to my technique to see if it makes a difference.
2. The downhill: I wish to try a faster approach to this scary fun corner - just wonder if I have the guts to fly through there!
3. I really need to be aware that I will not be able to drive to the same level as the last event of the season - the winter months make us all rusty, and I need to be careful not to over-drive the first event!
1. Big Bend is a *great* example of a trail-braking corner. Per Bruce McInnes, chief instructor Skip Barber School, of the total braking needed for Big Bend, about 90% of it should be done as "trail braking" - e.g., 90% of the braking is done AFTER the turn-in point.
Try this. Pick your braking marker, and when you hit it, use ALL of your braking capability. At the turn-in cone, start to dial-in steering, and start to back off the brakes. MAKE SURE TO HIT that first apex cone! Continue past the cone into the middle of the corner, but don't go out too far. If you were to take an aerial view of this approach, you'd see a change in your vector at the turn-in point, but after turning-in, it's almost a straight line. A LOT of braking can be accomplished in this period.
Make sure not to track out too far into the corner; continue to dial in more steering, and gently start to apply throttle. Now make sure to hit the Second apex, and track out to the track out cone. To increase your pace through Big Bend, watch your speed at the turn-in cone. Start to dial it up, 2 mph at a time. If you find yourself going to fast, you'll just run wider in the middle of the corner. You'll have defeated that particular lap, but you'll know what the fastest entry speed will be!
2. The downhill is actually a much simpler corner than students think. It's feared, though, because it IS intimidating, and because the consequences can be so high. As you go under the bridge, LIFT to decrease your speed. If you feel a need to brake, hit the brakes and settle the car (though many cars, depending on speed, tires, suspension do NOT need to brake). As you turn-in, start to dial in the gas. Do NOT be early to the apex here, and, as importantly, don't be OFF the apex (don't let there be any space between you and the apex point). And as you well know, DO NOT LIFT.
To increase your pace here, watch your speed at the turn-in point. Increase it by 2-3 mph per lap. Wanna find your limit for the corner? After you pass the apex point, don't track out as much. If you can hold the car "in", so that the car doesn't go all the way out to the track-out point, you ain't going fast enough.
There is actually a surprising amount of room to track-out onto the front straight. When you're going fast enough that you cannot comfortably hold the car in to avoid hitting the track-out point, you're going pretty good. And if you do screw up the corner, by early-apexing or missing it altogether, just keep your foot steady on the gas, and dial in more steering. Let the car understeer if you need, and, worst case, let it understeer right off the left edge of the track. Don't yank it back onto the track... just continue straight and slow down.If you DO lift, and the rear end gets goosey, you already know to reapply the throttle, if you can. If you use countersteer to catch the rear end, BE PREPARED for "secondary reaction oversteer" - you've caught the tail slide, but this has loaded up the suspension and when you straighten out, the springs uncompress and toss the rear end to the INSIDE. If you look at the track archaeology at this corner, you'll find at least as many marks on the inside as you do on the outside fence....
3. Remember, it'll be cold. Tires will be cold. Track will be scrubbed. Enjoy your day, but take your time to dial in the speed!
vty,
--Dennis
03-27-2004, 12:28 PM
#9
Race Director
Thread Starter
Dennis: thanks for the detailed advise, espeically regarding the downhill.
I'll work on those suggestions and get back to you after the event!!
-Z.
I'll work on those suggestions and get back to you after the event!!
-Z.
03-27-2004, 11:55 PM
#12
Burning Brakes
Re: Re: Lime Rock next week!
Originally posted by BigHeadDennis
Ok, all kidding about g-sums and such aside, may I offer a couple of suggestions?
1. Big Bend is a *great* example of a trail-braking corner. Per Bruce McInnes, chief instructor Skip Barber School, of the total braking needed for Big Bend, about 90% of it should be done as "trail braking" - e.g., 90% of the braking is done AFTER the turn-in point.
Try this. Pick your braking marker, and when you hit it, use ALL of your braking capability. At the turn-in cone, start to dial-in steering, and start to back off the brakes. MAKE SURE TO HIT that first apex cone! Continue past the cone into the middle of the corner, but don't go out too far. If you were to take an aerial view of this approach, you'd see a change in your vector at the turn-in point, but after turning-in, it's almost a straight line. A LOT of braking can be accomplished in this period.
Make sure not to track out too far into the corner; continue to dial in more steering, and gently start to apply throttle. Now make sure to hit the Second apex, and track out to the track out cone. To increase your pace through Big Bend, watch your speed at the turn-in cone. Start to dial it up, 2 mph at a time. If you find yourself going to fast, you'll just run wider in the middle of the corner. You'll have defeated that particular lap, but you'll know what the fastest entry speed will be!
2. The downhill is actually a much simpler corner than students think. It's feared, though, because it IS intimidating, and because the consequences can be so high. As you go under the bridge, LIFT to decrease your speed. If you feel a need to brake, hit the brakes and settle the car (though many cars, depending on speed, tires, suspension do NOT need to brake). As you turn-in, start to dial in the gas. Do NOT be early to the apex here, and, as importantly, don't be OFF the apex (don't let there be any space between you and the apex point). And as you well know, DO NOT LIFT.
To increase your pace here, watch your speed at the turn-in point. Increase it by 2-3 mph per lap. Wanna find your limit for the corner? After you pass the apex point, don't track out as much. If you can hold the car "in", so that the car doesn't go all the way out to the track-out point, you ain't going fast enough. There is actually a surprising amount of room to track-out onto the front straight. When you're going fast enough that you cannot comfortably hold the car in to avoid hitting the track-out point, you're going pretty good. And if you do screw up the corner, by early-apexing or missing it altogether, just keep your foot steady on the gas, and dial in more steering. Let the car understeer if you need, and, worst case, let it understeer right off the left edge of the track. Don't yank it back onto the track... just continue straight and slow down.
If you DO lift, and the rear end gets goosey, you already know to reapply the throttle, if you can. If you use countersteer to catch the rear end, BE PREPARED for "secondary reaction oversteer" - you've caught the tail slide, but this has loaded up the suspension and when you straighten out, the springs uncompress and toss the rear end to the INSIDE. If you look at the track archaeology at this corner, you'll find at least as many marks on the inside as you do on the outside fence....
3. Remember, it'll be cold. Tires will be cold. Track will be scrubbed. Enjoy your day, but take your time to dial in the speed!
vty,
--Dennis
Ok, all kidding about g-sums and such aside, may I offer a couple of suggestions?
1. Big Bend is a *great* example of a trail-braking corner. Per Bruce McInnes, chief instructor Skip Barber School, of the total braking needed for Big Bend, about 90% of it should be done as "trail braking" - e.g., 90% of the braking is done AFTER the turn-in point.
Try this. Pick your braking marker, and when you hit it, use ALL of your braking capability. At the turn-in cone, start to dial-in steering, and start to back off the brakes. MAKE SURE TO HIT that first apex cone! Continue past the cone into the middle of the corner, but don't go out too far. If you were to take an aerial view of this approach, you'd see a change in your vector at the turn-in point, but after turning-in, it's almost a straight line. A LOT of braking can be accomplished in this period.
Make sure not to track out too far into the corner; continue to dial in more steering, and gently start to apply throttle. Now make sure to hit the Second apex, and track out to the track out cone. To increase your pace through Big Bend, watch your speed at the turn-in cone. Start to dial it up, 2 mph at a time. If you find yourself going to fast, you'll just run wider in the middle of the corner. You'll have defeated that particular lap, but you'll know what the fastest entry speed will be!
2. The downhill is actually a much simpler corner than students think. It's feared, though, because it IS intimidating, and because the consequences can be so high. As you go under the bridge, LIFT to decrease your speed. If you feel a need to brake, hit the brakes and settle the car (though many cars, depending on speed, tires, suspension do NOT need to brake). As you turn-in, start to dial in the gas. Do NOT be early to the apex here, and, as importantly, don't be OFF the apex (don't let there be any space between you and the apex point). And as you well know, DO NOT LIFT.
To increase your pace here, watch your speed at the turn-in point. Increase it by 2-3 mph per lap. Wanna find your limit for the corner? After you pass the apex point, don't track out as much. If you can hold the car "in", so that the car doesn't go all the way out to the track-out point, you ain't going fast enough.
There is actually a surprising amount of room to track-out onto the front straight. When you're going fast enough that you cannot comfortably hold the car in to avoid hitting the track-out point, you're going pretty good. And if you do screw up the corner, by early-apexing or missing it altogether, just keep your foot steady on the gas, and dial in more steering. Let the car understeer if you need, and, worst case, let it understeer right off the left edge of the track. Don't yank it back onto the track... just continue straight and slow down.If you DO lift, and the rear end gets goosey, you already know to reapply the throttle, if you can. If you use countersteer to catch the rear end, BE PREPARED for "secondary reaction oversteer" - you've caught the tail slide, but this has loaded up the suspension and when you straighten out, the springs uncompress and toss the rear end to the INSIDE. If you look at the track archaeology at this corner, you'll find at least as many marks on the inside as you do on the outside fence....
3. Remember, it'll be cold. Tires will be cold. Track will be scrubbed. Enjoy your day, but take your time to dial in the speed!
vty,
--Dennis
Damn, I wish I had read this before today. I got Big Bend down, but my instructor had me taking one large decreasing radius arc for the turn. It seemed to work, but I don't know if it was the fastest way. It's really bumpy there with all the concrete patches. This line seems to minimze that.
The downhill definately sounds better the way you put it. Initially, I was breaking under the bridge because I couldn't see over the hill(bad habit from road driving.) I finally got to lifting under the bridge, but then I was breaking really hard at the bottom which really upset the car. I think if i just smoothly apply throttle at the point where the suspension compresses at the bottom of the hill, I'll be set.
03-28-2004, 01:13 AM
#15
Race Director
Thread Starter
Ken,
Bear in mind that the 'no brakes' technique is a more advanced way of doing the downhill at Limerock (that's why I didn't explicitly mention it in my first post here!) You may want to get a little more seat time under your belt before trying that tricky section of track without braking. Most people progress up to White or even Black before attempting it.
Hope you don't mind me saying so,
-Zoltan.
PS: How do you like Lime Rock? And how'd you like your new turbo?
Bear in mind that the 'no brakes' technique is a more advanced way of doing the downhill at Limerock (that's why I didn't explicitly mention it in my first post here!) You may want to get a little more seat time under your belt before trying that tricky section of track without braking. Most people progress up to White or even Black before attempting it.
Hope you don't mind me saying so,
-Zoltan.
PS: How do you like Lime Rock?
And how'd you like your new turbo?
Last edited by Z-man; 03-28-2004 at 02:13 AM.