Dave

Hey Z-man, how 'bout a g-sum chart of that spin?? Maybe you should be the HWFM perc tester!?
Having seen Zoltan's spin, I can say he did a great job of it! Clear proof of the difference in polar moment between a transaxel car and a mid engine, you will never see a Boxster or 914 whip around like that!

Z-man

Dave: I'm working on it!

But back to your point of instruction vs. non-instruction. Since I'm in the White (no instructors necessary) run group, I don't require instruction any more. Since I've moved up to White, I have ALWAYS requested an instructor or two PER event! This past event, I had two instructors help me.

Did they help? Absolutely! Without their instruction, I would NEVER have gotten the downhill without brakes down. (BTW: BigHeadDennis: thanks for the comments on "mastering the downhill," but I can hardly say that! Let's just say that I crossed over a threshold of learning and skill on that turn! ) Also: both Ford and Dom helped me understand the uphill better, and I was able to carry much more speed through there than I had ever!

"Practice makes perfect" is not always true. Seat time doesn't always work. "Perfect Practice makes perfect!" Proper seat time works! Many drivers who've progressed up to non-instructed run groups plateau in their ability. Why? Because they feel they know it all. WRONG! It is the person who is willing to admit he needs to learn more that will progress far greater than those who think they know it all.

Never neglect the tool of an instructor! Use them, learn from them. Then, the times you drive solo, you'll be able to apply what they've shown you. Balancing the two is vital in learning how to drive in DE's.

-Zoltan.

Dave

You are absolutely correct Zoltan! I hope I didn't overstate my case, I would never want to sound as if I were advocating an instructor-less learning experience, only that in the last couple days I have gone from not seeing the point of sign-off in the green (and maybe yellow) run group, to realizing the value of doing what you are learning without the distraction of another person in the car (and the car feels more like what I'm used to without the extra weight!).
Were I to go back to LRP in the near future I would look forward to more instruction first and hope for the opportunity for a little solo time second. If my next DE is someplace else or it is a while before my next DE. I will probably consider myself to be a first-timer all over again. My instructor started to explain how sign-offs are one of the things used to determine a students run group assignment, I stopped him and told him it didn't really matter to me. As long as I'm learning something and enjoying it they can call it whatever color they want.

Brian P

Ah, young grasshopper. Someday you too will master the fine art of track driving on snow tires!

Dave

My goal in life has become to break the 1:10 barrier on my Artic-Alpins!

So have you checked those snow tires to see if there's anything in the way of "unusual wear?" I went over mine today (new, unknown brand) and they looked fine, no chunking or unusual wear. Zoltan needs some new tires, he's looking at these Pirelli's.

Brian P

I checked them and there seems to be no extra wear. I'm not too surprised as I didn't even get those tires to squeal. They reminded me a bit of R-compounds in that respect.

Bill Gregory

I've found with the current (last year) condition of the downhill by the apex, that turning in just a tad later and running about 2 feet out from the apex makes for a much smoother run. Those ripples at the apex can unsettle the suspension (and maybe the driver ) at speed.

BigHeadDennis

Dave, excellent points about working with an instructor AND running alone. One technique I use with students that are progressing rapidly is to tell them, "ok, you're doing great, I want you to drive the next two laps without any comments/feedback from me (unless I see you do something really stupid)." This way, the student can focus on his or her driving, AND will be without the crutch of me (sometimes) saying, "brake here" or reminding him/her to turn in properly. Sometimes I add, "ok, for the next two laps, critique yourself; if you're on apex, say so; if you're making a mistake, shout it out." This way, *I* know if the *student* knows that he or she is making a mistake. Figuring out what you're doing wrong is the first step to doing it right! :-)

About mirrors... I always suggest that you check them often. DON'T, however, worry so much about them that you lose focus elsewhere. Just CHECK the mirrors, and if someone is behind you, let them by. If you don't see anyone in the mirror, well that's just a split second of your attention. And don't be afraid to ask the instructor to check the mirror; that's IN HIS JOB DESCRIPTION, and HE should also mention if a point-by is needed.

Sounds like you had fun, Dave - congrats!

vty,

--Dennis

adrial

Dennis,

I like your method, thats the way my instructor treated me on the 2nd day of my 2nd DE (so 3rd day of DE). He noticed that I was learning pretty well without his comments so he just let me drive. He offered to sign me off, but I rather keep the instructor in the car...just felt more comfortable that way and of course if I did anything drastically wrong and didn't realize it, he would tell me.

I still remember that one time that I hit a turn perfect (or so it seemed)...maybe one day it'll happen again... (if running pocono north clockwise, it was the turn after the kink coming off the straight which was hard braking into a right turn leading onto another short straight).

stefang

Just a couple more random comments -

3h of flagging in the cold is too long. Not only am I now sick, but more importantly, you start loosing concentration at the end. Not a good thing. Just something to consider for organizers.

Pfffttt to BrianP for taunting us by running circles around us on his snowtires. Shheesh BTW - how was your "talk" on saturday?

Thanks to Z-man for spinning during our checker lap. No loss of track time at all! Seriously though, thanks for making me go get an instructor. I'd gotten discouraged the last few times. While being far from the fastest one out there I do know LRP very well and usually didn't get any more constructive advice on how to improve. Since I tend to jump around a bit in terms of clubs I don't know any of them well enough to know who's a good teacher. Anyhow, needless to say Dom not only knows how to drive a car fast he's also good at conveying the knowledge. I had a blast with him in the car.

All in all, a good time was had. Looking forward to the next one in somewhat warmer conditions.

Z-man

stefang: it was fun running with you! Glad that Dom could help point out stuff for you: he is a very encouraging instructor!

You may not have been the fastest car out there, but you were certainly maximizing the G-Sum area of your little 944 n/a! Seriously: you were going as fast as you could pedal!!! Don't be discouraged by all those faster hp cars in our run group. Funny how much they all slowed down in the rain!

Hope to see you out there again soon!
-Z.

stefang

Nah, I'm still leaving plenty on the table. I'm still not overdriving my tires, which would be a sign to move up to R-compounds. However a couple more sessions with Dom and you better fix your overbraking issue or I'll be passing you

And yes, rain is the great equalizer. It was extremely gratifying to play tag with the GT3 on thu.

BTW - how much do you charge for your charting services?

Brian P

Hmm, I thought you were on R-compounds already. No wonder I was passing you!

I don't believe that overdriving tires means that you should move up to stickier tires. Eventually, you'll just overdrive those as well and IMHO they don't take the abuse quite as well as street tires.

stefang

Nope, running on Yoko AVS-I currently.

I guess overdriving wasn't the word I was looking for, but I am not yet using the maximum grip available. Don't get me wrong, the temptation is there but I feel that until I've used everything the tires can give me I shouldn't move up - pretty much the same theory I'm applying to the whole car.

Brian P

I think that's a great way to approach things. I know that I moved to R compounds a bit a season too soon and I still regret it.

When I switched back to street tires, I finally learned how to properly drive - perhaps it was a coincidence on the timing, perhaps not... Anyhow, it prepared me well for driving on snow tires.