Also, it doesn't have to be one or the other. At the same event, you could have in-car instruction for students and instructors who're comfortable with that, and lead/follow for the others. That might complicate scheduling a bit, but I'm sure it could be done. None of these solutions are ideal, but our cheese has been moved, so we need to adapt.

 

They didn't teach much of car control at all. We were expected to know that already. Two feet in and lift off oversteer were things that I learned on the street though. I was a hooligan in an E36 M3 (with traction control off) back in college, and did a lot of things on the street that I shouldn't have. So I agree that you need those skills before you race, but both my brother and I definitely had those already.

I don't think the third point is difficult to discern though if you've watched a lot of racing.

 

You better have some reliable bullet proof waivers of liability and hold harmless clauses in them that are iron clad (if there is such a thing in this litigious society we live in), because when an instructor gets sick and it's worse case scenario for him, and a student also gets sick, who's family is gonna sue who's family?

PCA insurance gonna cover that liability? You know it's gonna happen, so how do you deal with the legal side of that?

 

As aggressive as I always drove on the road it appears you had me beat as I don't think I got much oversteer except when I would drive in the snow. My youth was (sadly) filled with front wheel drive cars.

 

I'm not a lawyer, but I would hope that a "proceed at your own risk" clause would cover that, same way that the whole track thing is proceed at your own risk. I personally wouldn't be willing to do in-car instruction until we have proven preventions or good treatments for the virus, but I wouldn't want to stop others from doing it.

 

Isn't that a litigators favorite phrase? Luigi, any input on this?

I am talking strictly from a legal standpoint.

 

You can waive most liability but not all. I think you could make it clear that people are assuming the risk if they instruct sitting right seat and that would be an effective waiver.

 

Yeah, words like assuming and effective waiver are what should scare you, and that's only for the instructors.

What about the students?

"Sure, we'll put an instructor on your right seat, but if you get Covid-19 and die from it, please sign here so we know your family won't sue us...."

The legal issues are a big concern until there is a vaccine.

And you, being an instructor, (and a lawyer), are you ready to get into the right seat with a stranger and take his word that he's not an asymptomatic carrier?

I am just trying to be realistic here. The litigious society we live in now will not allow in car instruction until there is a vaccine. Maybe some private groups could pull it off, but I don't see PCA being able to do it for insurance reasons, at least for the time bring.

Just my $.02

 

I think it needs to be made that clear that both instructor and student are proceeding at their own risk. If not comfortable with the risk, don't do it. Instructors can drive as non-instructing solo drivers, and students can do lead/follow. Step 1 with the whole thing is to get the tracks open and get the solo drivers out there.

 

I think there's a lot of wishful thinking here.

My hunches:
No region is putting anyone in the right seat under any circumstance.
Many regions will only have solo groups..
Others will do lead follow and corner observers, but only if an insurance solution is offered by national. (My experience is lead follow and observation don't work well for many novices, even when offered by pro coaches but my opinion isn't important).
I doubt there will be a lot of promotions, and those will mostly be more advanced drivers, with the checkout instructor driving behind the candidate and maybe reviewing data.

 

Let me beat my head against the wall again.

It DOES matter what program offered by one of only a few serious, long term professional schools you take. Speaking from my experience as a Skippy instructor and knowledge of the curriculum for any one of a dozen different programs offered until at least 2012, there’s only ONE Three-Day Competition School that they offer. And the new Skip Barber School is now offering that as good or better than the last several years of the old iteration.

One and two-day programs are NOT racing schools. They’re “Introductions to high-performance driving,” with a little bit of “driving experience” in them. The one you went to was probably a negotiated and abbreviated program as part of another larger event. This happens a lot with marque clubs seeking to give their participants a little “more.”

You say “establish the instincts.”

First off, there is a comprehensive FULL first day consumed wholly by extensive education on the tenets of managing weigh distribution, control input order, timing and amplitude, vision, line theory and crisis management.

Then, there is time enough on the skid pad to BREAK the bad habits of adding power past the point of loss of control. This to reinforce all the good benefits of looking where you want to go, understanding and implementing the release of compressed suspension energy so you don’t spin the OTHER way using “Correct-Pause-Recover.”

Bruce MacInnes left marks on my knee lifting my pants leg to GET MY FOOT OFF the gas pedal thirty-five years ago until I broke the habit on the skid-pad showing off my drifting skills. I was a cowboy, just like a lot of folks.

Then, there is an emergency lane change exercise that includes an introduction to threshold braking.

Then, there is a brake-turn exercise on the autocross course to practice executing successful trail-braking.

Then, there are (were) shifting and downshifting exercises, in order to get the sequence right.

That’s JUST the full first day...

I get it, the scorn and derision of other educational programs besides the ones many here are familiar with, invested in and wedded to.

I get that people learn at different rates.

I get that some people walk away with skills enough, not only keep themselves safe and be competitive, but also enough sense to avoid crashing themselves or others. Others don’t.

I also think not everyone can do this well or even safely. One of the nicest things about a bona-fide pro school is that they DON’T pass everyone. They don’t have to.

I don’t know why your lackluster experience and doubt picked a scab that made the memories of working with people who will forget more than almost everyone here will ever know well up inside, but it did.

If you ever get a chance to take a really serious race school, with top-level instructors who’ve been doing this for decades, with a well executed, complete curriculum and exercise workflow, it DOES more than equip you with the ability to race successfully.

More than that, you gain the understanding of weight distribution, best execution of fundamental skills, crisis management, even where you can push and where you should stand pat, as well as insight into recognizing “minor misjudgments before they become MAJOR mistakes.”

It’s a necessary and needed experience to become as complete a driver, instructor and racer you can be, in my opinion and experience.

 

+1

+1,000

+1,000,000

We’ve already been up and running for more than ten days here at VIR with solo drivers.

 

I don't disagree with anything you're saying but several groups in Texas are back to having right seat instruction. I don't think it prudent at this point but it is being done.

 

At least once a day I try to be the person that makes someone else need a drink.

I hear you Peter, and true I took a 2-day class, and not the full on racing school. What I'm saying is for me it took a while to build the instincts which are automatic to me at this point.

Hell, maybe I am dense, but the first time I spun and remembered to keep two feet in, was after many spins where I didn't.

To illustrate further, my wife came into my home office one night and asked me who I was on the phone with. I said no one. She said I heard you yelling at someone. I was watching videos of my first year racing and was yelling "what are you doing!", "get off the brake!", "that's not anywhere near the apex!", and so on. I was not very good.

Again, and not to be pedantic, I personally could not see myself racing after a 3-day school. Driving on track is one of the very few things I have taken seriously in my life where I strive to learn, understand and execute. Maybe I am a slow learner but I don't think I am.

Lastly, yes I have a bias because this is the way I learned. Probably the same bias is making you defend your position. I get it.

I guess we were talking about lead follow but driving with little experience got dragged into the discussion. I'm not sold on either but I am willing to consider alternatives and will listen to the webinar on Wednesday with an open and mostly sober mind.

 

At Bondurant's race school in '72, they would have us drive down a lane which opened up into three separate lanes marked with cones, each with a stop light. We had to drive down the single lane at 60mph, then Bob would green light one of the three lanes and we had to get through that one without knocking over any cones. Then we would have to do it over at 70mph. They challenged us with many exercises both on and off the track. Maybe they assumed that if we drove to the school, we already knew how to drive and had good basic instincts and reactions, having survived LA traffic.
After a race school, no one says you have to race. You could go back to DE events, be ahead of your group and continue to improve your skills.