No Lead and Follow for Novice Drivers at DE???
#46
Mike, not picking on you at all but this line of thinking fits in to the discussion. Neither you nor I have any expert knowledge on the degradation of belt performance with time. Yes we can all google and find into, but that makes us only experts at googling. The manufacturers, FIA, and SFI have set standard for when harnesses need to be replaced. If we tell attendees “yeah those harnesses look fine, go ahead” we are exposing ourselves should something unfortunate happen. Few like that reality, but it is reality.
WRT the 30 year seatbelt comments, I’m not sure how many (if any) car manufacturers stipulate replacement of belts after a certain amount of time. If they did, PCA, Chin, HOD,... would probably be forced to put rules in on seatbelt age also. I wonder if the lack of seatbelt replacement intervals is because the manufacturers just have not done it, if those belts are not made to withstand the same forces, If they are made differently, or any combination of these possibilities.
WRT the 30 year seatbelt comments, I’m not sure how many (if any) car manufacturers stipulate replacement of belts after a certain amount of time. If they did, PCA, Chin, HOD,... would probably be forced to put rules in on seatbelt age also. I wonder if the lack of seatbelt replacement intervals is because the manufacturers just have not done it, if those belts are not made to withstand the same forces, If they are made differently, or any combination of these possibilities.
I suspect with street cars, the public simply would not tolerate it. I also suspect old belt failures haven't occurred with enough frequency to justify replacement intervals. Who knows, it is all speculation.
#47
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Probably not a huge concern, but I could envision instructors who race not wanting to rack up hours on their cars doing lead-follow. Maybe not such a concern on my lowly SPB and I’d be happy to do it (hearing the radio would be the issue there...), but hours are awfully expensive on Cup cars. Just saying, could reduce the Instructor count by a handful per event
I don't see novices needing Cup cars to lead their group. This is for Green group (NASA HPDE1, BMWCCA D Group) and maybe the start of Yellow group, that's it.
This whole new world is going to put a serious premium on more clear and complete (did I say MORE?) outside-of-the-car coaching in classroom, small groups and one-on-one. This is how most other successful programs, including ALL professional schools, do it.
Organizations will need to "buck up" and equip their students with what they need to stay safe OUTSIDE the car, and keep in-car instruction for tune ups and isolated, targeted, real-time feedback for both the students who want it and the instructors that still want to give it.
The issue, as I see it, is that the club organizations have loaded up their instructors with the awesome responsibility of transferring incredible, mind-numbing amounts of information to their novice students and "maintain control" to insure safety (and some instructors get off doing this, especially the latter) in lieu of car control exercises on the skid pad, autocross and on-track exercises, plus EXTENSIVE classroom and small group instruction, coaching and feedback.
In-car instruction will not go away, but other avenues must be explored, developed and refined to make what we have even better.
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#48
The issue, as I see it, is that the club organizations have loaded up their instructors with the awesome responsibility of transferring incredible, mind-numbing amounts of information to their novice students and "maintain control" to insure safety (and some instructors get off doing this, especially the latter) in lieu of car control exercises on the skid pad, autocross and on-track exercises, plus EXTENSIVE classroom and small group instruction, coaching and feedback.
I do think car control is a weakness in the classical DE format.
#49
Agreed. I think that before anyone gets on a track they need to do a basic car control class on a skid pad. And clubs should offer this and make it mandatory before signing up for their events. Think of it like "Hunters Safety" for Driving Events.
#50
I love this no in car instruction you are going to die. SCCA drivers school takes people who can have 0 track experience and buckle them into a race car The 1st lap is game on. They do have a mentor/Inst who does watch from various corners and gives station wagon rides to show the line. TNIA puts them on track with no experience and they don’t wreck their cars. I’m not saying coaching is a bad thing and it moves the learning curve faster. As I have said before riding right seat can get you killed or badly injured and I have seen the results of both happening.
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ProCoach (05-15-2020)
#51
I think the already thinned instructor corps (the trend over the last ten years as organizational demands outstrip supply) will be further sapped by this pandemic. Many of the corps are at-risk groups, anyway.
I don't see novices needing Cup cars to lead their group. This is for Green group (NASA HPDE1, BMWCCA D Group) and maybe the start of Yellow group, that's it.
This whole new world is going to put a serious premium on more clear and complete (did I say MORE?) outside-of-the-car coaching in classroom, small groups and one-on-one. This is how most other successful programs, including ALL professional schools, do it.
Organizations will need to "buck up" and equip their students with what they need to stay safe OUTSIDE the car, and keep in-car instruction for tune ups and isolated, targeted, real-time feedback for both the students who want it and the instructors that still want to give it.
The issue, as I see it, is that the club organizations have loaded up their instructors with the awesome responsibility of transferring incredible, mind-numbing amounts of information to their novice students and "maintain control" to insure safety (and some instructors get off doing this, especially the latter) in lieu of car control exercises on the skid pad, autocross and on-track exercises, plus EXTENSIVE classroom and small group instruction, coaching and feedback.
In-car instruction will not go away, but other avenues must be explored, developed and refined to make what we have even better.
I don't see novices needing Cup cars to lead their group. This is for Green group (NASA HPDE1, BMWCCA D Group) and maybe the start of Yellow group, that's it.
This whole new world is going to put a serious premium on more clear and complete (did I say MORE?) outside-of-the-car coaching in classroom, small groups and one-on-one. This is how most other successful programs, including ALL professional schools, do it.
Organizations will need to "buck up" and equip their students with what they need to stay safe OUTSIDE the car, and keep in-car instruction for tune ups and isolated, targeted, real-time feedback for both the students who want it and the instructors that still want to give it.
The issue, as I see it, is that the club organizations have loaded up their instructors with the awesome responsibility of transferring incredible, mind-numbing amounts of information to their novice students and "maintain control" to insure safety (and some instructors get off doing this, especially the latter) in lieu of car control exercises on the skid pad, autocross and on-track exercises, plus EXTENSIVE classroom and small group instruction, coaching and feedback.
In-car instruction will not go away, but other avenues must be explored, developed and refined to make what we have even better.
The limited engine rpm to start with and then upped the limit each day. There was some lead follow track exercises, threshold breaking exercises and trail braking exercises.
They covered weight transferred under braking and acceleration.
The race cars had threaded tires. The gear boxes were dog type so you needed to double clutch to shift or you learned that after lifting, you could the gear box in neutral with no damage.
There was some instruction in Dodge Neon, front wheel drive, by the instructor in the driver's seat and then switching with the student in the driver's seat, and 2 other students seating in the rear awaiting their turn in the driver's seat
I do not believe there was any point by's on track.
This is the best model to learn car control
Last edited by T&T Racing; 05-16-2020 at 11:56 AM.
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#52
cartwheeling ball of fire
You know, people used to learn how to do this all on their own... And they didn't crash, turn into a cartwheeling ball of fire or anything of the sort.
Then came professional schools. They were the ones that perfected this. Forty-plus years ago, and 18 Indy 500 winners came out of just SBRS. Jim Russell, Bob Bondurant, Skip Barber, Bertil Roos, Spenard-David, just to name a few.
I understand people are wedded to in-car instruction and not a few believe that there is NO way to instruct a novice without it. That's a shame, because the evidence does not support that.
It's a new world. Change or die.
Then came professional schools. They were the ones that perfected this. Forty-plus years ago, and 18 Indy 500 winners came out of just SBRS. Jim Russell, Bob Bondurant, Skip Barber, Bertil Roos, Spenard-David, just to name a few.
I understand people are wedded to in-car instruction and not a few believe that there is NO way to instruct a novice without it. That's a shame, because the evidence does not support that.
It's a new world. Change or die.
I went to Bondurant in '72. Five day course for $500. There was a lot of class room time, then we would ride along with an instructor, who showed us what he wanted. We drove school Datsun 510s and chased the instructor most of the time. I don't remember ever having an instructor riding with me. After Bondurant, I did four SCCA races in a stock Datsun 510, then moved over to the IMSA Camel GT series and figured stuff out as I went.
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#53
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Our plan is a lead car, then 3 students then a chase car. Lead and chase driven by instructors. Radios in both. In depth briefing before and after. We planned a lot more classroom time for the novice and first solo groups this even before the covid disaster. While I believe in the benefits of in-car teaching, covid says we have to adapt. What bothers me is the fact that PCA has the nerve to tell us we don't know how to do it without their guidance. This is excess risk avoidance by PCA the same as the harness rules. The harness in my car gets a helluva lot less use than the 3 points which are good for the life of the car. Sheer nonsense. So this and other rules imposed by overzealous risk managers are making things difficult which is why we may run non PCA events from here on. The extra cost for insurance will be more than offset by the revenue we get from the novice drivers. To the comment about wear and tear on a cup car, use your daily instead. The speed in lead and follow wouldn't tax a Chevy Cruz!
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#54
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Best comment on RL in a long time: "You know, people used to learn how to do this all on their own... And they didn't crash, turn into a cartwheeling ball of fire or anything of the sort."
I went to Bondurant in '72. Five day course for $500. There was a lot of class room time, then we would ride along with an instructor, who showed us what he wanted. We drove school Datsun 510s and chased the instructor most of the time. I don't remember ever having an instructor riding with me. After Bondurant, I did four SCCA races in a stock Datsun 510, then moved over to the IMSA Camel GT series and figured stuff out as I went.
I went to Bondurant in '72. Five day course for $500. There was a lot of class room time, then we would ride along with an instructor, who showed us what he wanted. We drove school Datsun 510s and chased the instructor most of the time. I don't remember ever having an instructor riding with me. After Bondurant, I did four SCCA races in a stock Datsun 510, then moved over to the IMSA Camel GT series and figured stuff out as I went.
I autocrossed for two years before I went to a low key Ferrari Club track event at Roebling Road. A fast track. A customer of mine (I was a Ferrari mechanic at the time) threw me the keys to his ex-GM Chief Designer Chuck Jordan’s 250 GT/L and turned me loose for two days. Before I went out for the first time, one of my mentors, Ferrari dealer Steve Barney, leaned into the drivers side window and said “you better treat this thing like a gun. Because if it ever goes off, you’ll wish you were dead...”
Effective mentoring and coaching...
#55
Bingo is in bold.
You know, people used to learn how to do this all on their own... And they didn't crash, turn into a cartwheeling ball of fire or anything of the sort.
Then came professional schools. They were the ones that perfected this. Forty-plus years ago, and 18 Indy 500 winners came out of just SBRS. Jim Russell, Bob Bondurant, Skip Barber, Bertil Roos, Spenard-David, just to name a few.
I understand people are wedded to in-car instruction and not a few believe that there is NO way to instruct a novice without it. That's a shame, because the evidence does not support that.
It's a new world. Change or die.
You know, people used to learn how to do this all on their own... And they didn't crash, turn into a cartwheeling ball of fire or anything of the sort.
Then came professional schools. They were the ones that perfected this. Forty-plus years ago, and 18 Indy 500 winners came out of just SBRS. Jim Russell, Bob Bondurant, Skip Barber, Bertil Roos, Spenard-David, just to name a few.
I understand people are wedded to in-car instruction and not a few believe that there is NO way to instruct a novice without it. That's a shame, because the evidence does not support that.
It's a new world. Change or die.
At PCA race weekends I work the entire weekend with my coach using only video and data and I find it extremely useful. I've coached intermediate drivers using lead follow with good results.
I still wonder how these brand new "I want to go fast drivers" will do in their really fast cars, with all the nannies, without someone sitting right seat.
Peter - you focus on out of car coaching. How many of your clients are first time drivers and how does that work out?
#56
My 1st track experience was at spring mountain for the corvette owners class. It was lead follow. Instructor followed by 3 students and it was an awesome experience. Everyone in the group had time driving behind the instructor.The instructors were awesome and I’m not sure how they did it but they were able to instruct from the front. We spent time on the skid pad which was the most eye opening exercise that we did. I think this method can work great but my question is how many instructors could teach this way. These guys were amazing to drive as fast as they were and speak into a mic while looking in their rear view mirror. I really credit this course with giving me a great foundation for further learning.
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ProCoach (05-16-2020)
#57
I think that some of you have not ridden right seat in a 600+ whp car at COTA for a students first ever session when you say that students will be OK for sure on their own. Maybe without the instructor in the car they will drive more carefully? But I have had to do a lot of yelling at students to brake at T12 and to not rotate into the wall at T10 and 19...
#58
I echo TXE36 concerns here about lack of in car instruction. In lead follow, how do you see if the student has both hands on the wheel? How do you know they’re not fiddling with the radio, AC, cell phone. Are they seeing flag stations? Are they just coasting around the track the whole time or are they accelerating, braking, turning at the right points? And if one person in the 2-3 car lead/follow is terrified to be out there (or not paying attention) doing 30mph, doesn’t that ruin the experience for the other 1 or 2 people in the group?
Then there’s training of the instructors. Reading Peter’s explanation on how it’s done, none of the PCA instructors would just “know” how to do all that (I certainly wouldn’t) , they would need to be trained. How fast do they go? What if one group catches another? How do you “hurry up” slow drivers? There would need to be a lot of planning and coordination on how to do it right so the students actually LEARN something instead of just touring around the track. How would the debrief instruction look? Do all the instructors have to report back to a classroom instructor? “car 125 was going slow and missing turns, you need to talk to them, because my run group is going out now and I want to drive”. Or do they get with the students one on one after the session...thus potentially missing their own.. And who would train them? It took years to put together the current training program and get it rolled out to the regions. We already put a lot of responsibility and work on our chief instructors, who’s going to do all this?
what about capacity? You are now effectively doubling the number of cars in track so you need to halve the number of students so you don’t end up in trains. In our local club, green/newbie group is always a sell out...our limitation is usually enough instructors, with many taking 2 students (different run groups). We run two instructed groups (green, blue). How would the logistics of that work?
Radios. Does every club have enough radios? Doubtful. Most rent the track radios. 10 small lead follow groups means 20 radios. Who has that many?
And as mentioned, instructor cars. I can tell you, I certainly wouldn’t do lead follow in our race car. And a large number of our instructors are racers. Or they come to the event just to instruct and not drive and won’t take their street car/truck on the track. Not to mention talking on a handheld while driving would be a challenge.
Keep in mind, the examples being used of where it works are for profit instructor schools, where the instructors are professionally trained and get paid to do this. PCA is volunteer, our instructors are doing this as a courtesy to “give back” to the program. Who’s going to have time to make all this happen and be consistent with it? As I mentioned, we already put a lot of responsibility on the CI and classroom instructors. Plus, most that do enjoy instructing really enjoy the one on one interaction with the student and satisfaction of seeing them progress. That would be lost in lead-follow. It becomes very impersonal, which may further de-incentivize people to instruct.
I could go on, but you get the point. IMO, this isn’t something that you can just flip a switch and make happen.
Then there’s training of the instructors. Reading Peter’s explanation on how it’s done, none of the PCA instructors would just “know” how to do all that (I certainly wouldn’t) , they would need to be trained. How fast do they go? What if one group catches another? How do you “hurry up” slow drivers? There would need to be a lot of planning and coordination on how to do it right so the students actually LEARN something instead of just touring around the track. How would the debrief instruction look? Do all the instructors have to report back to a classroom instructor? “car 125 was going slow and missing turns, you need to talk to them, because my run group is going out now and I want to drive”. Or do they get with the students one on one after the session...thus potentially missing their own.. And who would train them? It took years to put together the current training program and get it rolled out to the regions. We already put a lot of responsibility and work on our chief instructors, who’s going to do all this?
what about capacity? You are now effectively doubling the number of cars in track so you need to halve the number of students so you don’t end up in trains. In our local club, green/newbie group is always a sell out...our limitation is usually enough instructors, with many taking 2 students (different run groups). We run two instructed groups (green, blue). How would the logistics of that work?
Radios. Does every club have enough radios? Doubtful. Most rent the track radios. 10 small lead follow groups means 20 radios. Who has that many?
And as mentioned, instructor cars. I can tell you, I certainly wouldn’t do lead follow in our race car. And a large number of our instructors are racers. Or they come to the event just to instruct and not drive and won’t take their street car/truck on the track. Not to mention talking on a handheld while driving would be a challenge.
Keep in mind, the examples being used of where it works are for profit instructor schools, where the instructors are professionally trained and get paid to do this. PCA is volunteer, our instructors are doing this as a courtesy to “give back” to the program. Who’s going to have time to make all this happen and be consistent with it? As I mentioned, we already put a lot of responsibility on the CI and classroom instructors. Plus, most that do enjoy instructing really enjoy the one on one interaction with the student and satisfaction of seeing them progress. That would be lost in lead-follow. It becomes very impersonal, which may further de-incentivize people to instruct.
I could go on, but you get the point. IMO, this isn’t something that you can just flip a switch and make happen.
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#59
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There are a lot of interesting comments in this thread. For folks who want to implement lead follow, I'd suggest getting in touch with the guys who actually ran the schools that did lead follow. Guys like Terry Earwood, Bruce MacInnnes, Phil Lombardi, Dennis Macchio, Lee Charpentier, and a ton of others. These guys ran the schools doing lead follow every day for years and decades. I would guess they have have time right now to do some consulting and help regions put together an effective plan for handling instruction out of car.
Naroscape - it was at Lime Rock a long time ago, in a Dodge Neon, doing 100 mph with a SBRS instructor on the downhill while he was steering with his knee, drinking a small can of Coke, talking on the radio that I realized how good some of those guys were! The radios don't have to be licensed band radios - you can get usable units for this kind of stuff for less than $50 each.
Naroscape - it was at Lime Rock a long time ago, in a Dodge Neon, doing 100 mph with a SBRS instructor on the downhill while he was steering with his knee, drinking a small can of Coke, talking on the radio that I realized how good some of those guys were! The radios don't have to be licensed band radios - you can get usable units for this kind of stuff for less than $50 each.
#60
LOL. As I said, professional instructors!