Glyndellis

Did one driver lead and the others followed?

I don't see too much concern with the bathrooms, as everyone will wash their hands afterwards. Won't they?

The in car proximity is one concern and the student headset is the other. I have a Trac Com and the headsets are expensive enough that I don't want to make it a throwaway item.

I am interested to see the discussion lead by Ross Bentley on Wednesday regarding the lead-follow. I see it as a completely different skill set to instruct and a completely different learning experience as a student.

LuigiVampa

Spencer *** was the first person to start peeing and the rest followed!

Hella-Buggin'

The Harness requirements do seem crazy but I think they are struggling to keep things safe with the newer car's capabilities. 10 years ago one had to have a lot more skill to go fast than today. And, the computer systems make you look good doing it until they don't. When a problem arises, one could be at race car speeds.

NaroEscape

This past weekend I talked with about 5 of our local PCA instructors, all of which are racers and all of which said they would not instruct in lead-follow: don’t want to waste fuel, wear on tires, wear on car and hours on their engines. Not to mention that none could see how it would work with the resources our club has available.

RossP

You must be only instructing in the H1 Hummer group.

Manifold

Though I don't necessarily expect lead/follow to be better overall than in-car instructing, here a few potential upsides of lead/follow to consider:

- The format limits the speed of the student, and sets a target pace for the student to aim for (which means students should probably be grouped by skill and cars).

- Safety benefit for instructors.

- Windows up could be safer overall.

- Less instructors needed.

- Students being alone in the car puts more responsibility on them, which may improve their learning.

- Students driving in a group may promote a spirit of cooperation on the track, since there's no passing and associated 'racing' mindset.

- Shift towards more analysis of data and video might enhance learning.

LuigiVampa

Can anyone argue that lead follow is superior? I don't think anyone is saying that.

In the Northeast here we have about 5+ months left in the season, as depressing as that sounds. Will organizations figure out lead follow, along with the insurance requirements, protocols, training, etc., in that time period? Probably not.

Will we be needing to do this next year? Probably not. (I'm not a doctor but there will either be a treatment or vaccine in about a year.)

Why the desire to figure something out, which will not really be a solution for this year, and most likely won't be needed next year.

I'm going to watch the Ross Bentley webinar on Wednesday but I am skeptical of how much control I can exert over a green student from another car. I don't have Jedi skills!

Lastly, these students will come back. Its not like everyone is going to stick with sim racing when this is all over.

dgrobs

If anyone can do it, I'd go with the guy who got his own spread in Pano........

needmoregarage

Who is providing the data/video?
i agree data works well. Newbies don’t generally collect data in my experience.

I did a small, private Star formula Mazda school at my home track. I had two seasons of experience. 10 of us shared 2 cars. I Knew the line. No instructor on track. No lead follow. Data only. The driving coach downloaded data after each session. Reviewed and gave two tasks to work on next session. If those tasks were accomplished, he'd give two more after next session and review. It was very effective. The coach could also listen from the grid and had some comments about our driving based on what he heard.

Are we training drivers to stare at the car ahead, rather than pick out visual cues?

I’m not opposed to lead follow. I attended 2 days of PSDS at Barber. I had 3 years driving experience and I had memorized the circuit so I had a good idea of the line before I arrived. I agree with all comments about the instructors having eyes in the back of their heads. They were very observant and helpful.

Manifold

Until we have effective treatments and/or vaccines, I think this virus will be hanging around for another 1-3 years until it fizzles down to a level that people don't worry about it anymore.

mlct

I agree it will be a slow process to transition but it is something we should explore and the slow pace of starting that process is driving me nuts. We have great resources to learn from in the PSDS, Skip Barber, and other school curriculum methods. So lets get going to have Greens back on track this fall if not sooner.

The end result will require instructors to drive non-race cars so they can be heard on the radio and properly see out the back(!) but it will also require far fewer instructors to staff the event so I think training the number required should be relatively "easy" to do. Some regions, like my CVR region, have a large number of Instructors come without their cars regularly, for one reason or another, to instruct due to their love of giving back to our sport so driving their street cars relatively slowly on track may not discourage them as it might those will track cars who want to drive them more quickly.

Having observers in corners is great way (Apex does this now to name just one group) to also take advantage of experienced drivers keeping more Advanced Students learning without the risks of in-car in newer cars that ProCoach and others have commented on over the years. Add video and data analysis to the program and we all will learn more from each session. As an aside, nothing like standing listening to Hurley Haywood comment at a corner at Barber though I am sure Luigi and I would have great fun watching Cup Cars in the Carousel at Watkins Glen....

Personally I have done lead/follow as a student three times. My very first time on a track was at the Porsche school at Barber which is lead follow in five car (4 students rotating with a leading Instructor) as has been explained. I had only had my Cayman for a few months so it was a relatively new car to drive to me and I had never driven a 911 at all. The Instructors kept us under control to avoid any over exuberant Sim Racing off track grass cutting. The various training exercises - wet skid pad, fully coned autocross course, stoplight drills, and classroom were a great help to reinforce the material I had already read in books (Going Faster the Skip Barber book is/was great among others). Went back to Barber after around 60 track days and I found it fun but it didn't add as much as those first two every days on the track mostly because driving powerful street cars on street tires is boring to me after a few years in a race car with slicks. Then to BMW school at the Nurburgring after 100-120 track days in which was pretty much like being a beginner experience (so not boring at all!) again on that track in a powerful BMW but still on street tires..without a helmet which was mind blowing after years in Halo seats with a HANS, belts, fire suppression etc. As others have mentioned riding with the lead instructor car doing lead follow is quite the experience. I have done that at both PSDS and BMW School as they drove with one hand while holding their radio in the other hand is quite humbling. Not really sure if the BMW guy, not a racer, was shifting with his radio hand or didn't have a hand on the wheel at all but he was jabbing at the shift lever every so often in the dual-clutch automatic car...

So, I learned a great deal from lead follow each time. Now was that as much as having a proper right seat pro coach? No,.but a beginner learns a huge amount and gets to drive on the track which keeps our sport going so I think we should do it, in PCA, as fast as we possibly can.

Stay Safe.

Mark
P.S. and yes the lead instructor can notice (don't know how at the Ring but he did) comment on hand position of the first following driver. "I don't want to see any more of those bunny hands back there as we all know what happens to bunnies...they get ****ed.". That may have just been a German expression but it was quite funny to hear repeatedly given the habit of one of the fine very experienced driver in our group to keep his hands near the top of the wheel. If you are on here you know who your are....

cds4402

This is my brother. Two days in Novice group at COTA in an F-Type with Chin. Then SCCA Full Comp School in a Spec Racer Ford. Then we buy a Spec Miata, a few days at MSR Cresson alone. Then an SCCA Majors race. I have slightly more experience, but not much more. Maybe 10-11 track days total before my first SCCA Majors.

LuigiVampa

I'm not a fan of the racing school route. I know it has a long history in racing, but I don't think you can establish the instincts and reactions needed by attending a three day course.

How long does it take to know you shouldn't life off the throttle when you start to get oversteer?
How long before your instinct is to put two feet in when you lose the car?
How long before you can tell, just by looking, that the driver in front of you is about to lose control?

I took a two-day Skip Barber course at LRP when I already had a bunch of DE days under my belt. I still didn't feel like I was ready to race.

There is a big difference between racing and being ready to race. I've seen people out on track who were signed off who have no business being there.

Perhaps I am just a slow learner but I am a big believer in the DE route to racing. You gain the confidence and instincts by driving a lot of days before you go racing. If you want to add a racing school on top of that, like I did, it is great, but I don't think you are ready to race after attending a school.

Maybe other people pick up on track skills faster than me, and one size does not fit all, but I think it takes a lot to drive competently on track, never mind actually go racing.

mglobe

IIRC data and video came up when the question about how to promote solo students. I’m that case you don’t need a ton of systems. Some organizations are moving toward data coaching as an option, and may have a few loaner units that could be used for this.

Matt Romanowski

I don't think (and don't think people are suggesting) that lead/follow will replace in car instruction forever. In our current situation, if we want to have instructed drivers, we have to figure something out and lead/follow is probably going to be the track component. I'm sure there will be more classroom type instruction, though it will be the remote learning style through FB live, Zoom, or other videos. The video part is already being done by many groups. The webinar by Ross, David, and Bill will be interesting, though without Terry, I'm not sure they are qualified

For data options, there are a number of groups that have data systems to use in students cars. I have supplied many and helped some with ideas and methods to teach their participants. I think more will come and their will some new options for data in cars.