Presented by Mercedes the Mercedes Formula Mercedes Tour Brought to you by Mercedes
06-24-2019, 10:51 AM
#136
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
If Lewis would have started going on about how he had no where else to go on the radio, gone straight to his trailer after an incident like that, then swapped the place boards the fallout would have been MASSIVE! The insults and comments would never stop... Seb however is somehow a hero for it.
Yeah, I've been calling BS on this in F1 for years but hey, that's just me
Yeah, I've been calling BS on this in F1 for years but hey, that's just me
Schumacher, arguably the greatest driver of all time (or Fangio if you want to reach back to a different era) was a massive douche-bag on track. He clearly did some unethical things like driving people into the wall. If you don't have the killer instinct you are just not going to win.
What Hammy is doing is no different from what every other champion has done. Alonso was a master of the mind games as well.
My point, is that I wonder how it would affect his overall confidence if he were not in a competitive car. We haven't seen that in a while. Maybe he would rise to it ("still I rise") or maybe not. It will just be interesting to see where the grid shakes out in 2021.
McLaren took almost the whole turbo/hybrid era to figure out this formula and now they have one more year with it!
PS - I hate Hammy's hair.
PPS - I think how people perceived what Vettel did with the boards at Canada was relative to the driver. About 3/4 of the grid could do what he did and people would think it was "cheeky" and with the last 1/4 it would have been perceived as being an a-hole. If Max did it everyone would have booed him, by way of example.
06-24-2019, 10:58 AM
#137
Let's be honest - you don't get to be an F1 driver unless you are sort of of a douche-bag. Every single driver has had a bad moment and lost their $hit at one time or another. Danny Ric, arguably the nicest guy on the grid, totally freaked out when he got screwed out of the Monaco win. He was entitled to feel that way.
Schumacher, arguably the greatest driver of all time (or Fangio if you want to reach back to a different era) was a massive douche-bag on track. He clearly did some unethical things like driving people into the wall. If you don't have the killer instinct you are just not going to win.
What Hammy is doing is no different from what every other champion has done. Alonso was a master of the mind games as well.
My point, is that I wonder how it would affect his overall confidence if he were not in a competitive car. We haven't seen that in a while. Maybe he would rise to it ("still I rise") or maybe not. It will just be interesting to see where the grid shakes out in 2021.
McLaren took almost the whole turbo/hybrid era to figure out this formula and now they have one more year with it!
PS - I hate Hammy's hair.
PPS - I think how people perceived what Vettel did with the boards at Canada was relative to the driver. About 3/4 of the grid could do what he did and people would think it was "cheeky" and with the last 1/4 it would have been perceived as being an a-hole. If Max did it everyone would have booed him, by way of example.
Schumacher, arguably the greatest driver of all time (or Fangio if you want to reach back to a different era) was a massive douche-bag on track. He clearly did some unethical things like driving people into the wall. If you don't have the killer instinct you are just not going to win.
What Hammy is doing is no different from what every other champion has done. Alonso was a master of the mind games as well.
My point, is that I wonder how it would affect his overall confidence if he were not in a competitive car. We haven't seen that in a while. Maybe he would rise to it ("still I rise") or maybe not. It will just be interesting to see where the grid shakes out in 2021.
McLaren took almost the whole turbo/hybrid era to figure out this formula and now they have one more year with it!
PS - I hate Hammy's hair.
PPS - I think how people perceived what Vettel did with the boards at Canada was relative to the driver. About 3/4 of the grid could do what he did and people would think it was "cheeky" and with the last 1/4 it would have been perceived as being an a-hole. If Max did it everyone would have booed him, by way of example.
PS. I'm doing my hair like Hamilton's for you at NJMP
PPS, I liked the board swap, would have thought that was a great move by any driver... I'm in the cheeky club lol. Not the boycott and running to the motor home but the board swap and seeing Seb pull up on an old Suzuki 750 to the race yesterday gets him some points... Not to mention a fan catching him randomly push a guy in a wheelchair up the hill when there were no cameras around.
The biggest issue is the FIA "choosing" what to put over the radios and controlling what people hear and subsequently think about certain drivers...
06-24-2019, 04:15 PM
#138
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Historically speaking, there's only been 1 year in his career when Hamilton didn't have a competitive car and he whined and complained like no other. Granted he was younger with McLaren that year and one would like to think he's matured since then, but we only need to look at 2016 when Nico Rosberg beat LH to the championship when LH accused the team of sabotage. Anyone using the excuse of bad luck on why LH lost the championship that year only need only listen to Nico's hour long podcast when he was interviewed last year on what he had to do to win the WDC - it will give you a fresh perspective on what these guys go through on a professional level.
I'm not exactly sure how this turned into a race card thing, but I guess it's part of the offended class we have here in the US these day. If the Hamilton ball washers would have inserted Verstappen, Schumacher, Kyvet, Maldonado, etc., you would get the same reaction that Hamilton would have. Winners and whiners get all the flack.
All we need to look at is how the McLaren performed this weekend to see how much a car is worth. Did Norris and Sainz learn how to race this weekend and finish top 10 or did the car dramatically outperform what it had been doing the previous 4 years? I have to question the people on this forum that believe that the Ferrari is somehow on par with the Mercedes when we've had 8 or 9 races and Mercedes have no only won each race, but have finished 1-2 in more races than they have not! There is no competition... period.
I don't hate Hamilton or hate on him - he's simply taking advantage of the best car, most dominate car in the history of F1 and doing what he is supposed to do. He's better than Bottas. He was better than Rosberg except for 1 year. He was better than Button except for 2 years. But please don't tell me he could get in the Ferrari and somehow be competitive. You fail to take into account that Vettel's results are not only a reflection of his mistakes, but compounded by the mistakes on strategy and missteps from the pit wall that affect his point total.
I'm not exactly sure how this turned into a race card thing, but I guess it's part of the offended class we have here in the US these day. If the Hamilton ball washers would have inserted Verstappen, Schumacher, Kyvet, Maldonado, etc., you would get the same reaction that Hamilton would have. Winners and whiners get all the flack.
All we need to look at is how the McLaren performed this weekend to see how much a car is worth. Did Norris and Sainz learn how to race this weekend and finish top 10 or did the car dramatically outperform what it had been doing the previous 4 years? I have to question the people on this forum that believe that the Ferrari is somehow on par with the Mercedes when we've had 8 or 9 races and Mercedes have no only won each race, but have finished 1-2 in more races than they have not! There is no competition... period.
I don't hate Hamilton or hate on him - he's simply taking advantage of the best car, most dominate car in the history of F1 and doing what he is supposed to do. He's better than Bottas. He was better than Rosberg except for 1 year. He was better than Button except for 2 years. But please don't tell me he could get in the Ferrari and somehow be competitive. You fail to take into account that Vettel's results are not only a reflection of his mistakes, but compounded by the mistakes on strategy and missteps from the pit wall that affect his point total.
06-24-2019, 04:33 PM
#139
I personally don't think Hamilton falls to pieces as others have mentioned. He has proven in the past to have an uncanny ability to deliver when it is really necessary regardless of external factors. The guy can crash in FP2, miss an entire session, lose time in FP3 and then magically pull a lap out of absolutely nowhere almost at will that silences everyone. His ability in the wet is surpassed only by Max at this point. I just don't see a better all around driver at the moment and very few better all around drivers in the history of F1.
Say what you want about the car but the majority of champions tend to win in the strongest cars... Seb at RB, Michael at Ferrari, they all dominated when their cars were dominating. Nico was consistently bitch smacked by Lewis, if it weren't for one season where Lewis blows a few motors Nico is never a champ. Lewis beat Alonso arguably in his prime in equal cars. He is now pretty handily dominating VB. Everyone always says throw anyone in a Mercedes and they will dominate but VB has been fighting a few positions back and sometimes 30 seconds behind Lewis in the same car...
Ferrari is not the inferior car everyone makes it out to be either. If it weren't for mechanical, driver and strategy errors they probably have at least 3 wins this year... Hasn't Ferrari been faster in the speed traps as well?
Personally I love to F*ck with the Hamilton haters online... Putting pins in all their arguments and watching them start to get personal about Hamilton and his fans is hysterical to me. Getting political now so watch out but I also have to say, when you watch the demographics of where the blatant racism comes from it's pretty eye opening... You can actually see the racism trends globally online and can almost predict where someone is posting from based on their comments. The further into Eastern Europe and into the Middle East you go it is just flat out racism against the guy. Some of the comments from Ferrari's Middle East fans show the mental disparity around the globe... It's scary and sad. F1 chooses to live in total denial unlike other sports that have recognized the problem though. FIFA being one of them that has a very vocal "Say No to Racism" campaign... I am not saying everyone who hates Hamilton is a racist either, that would be stupid but to deny that a good deal of the hate is blatant racism is also stupid IMO. It's too obvious to ignore it, deny it or sweep it under the rug.
Yep, I said it....
Say what you want about the car but the majority of champions tend to win in the strongest cars... Seb at RB, Michael at Ferrari, they all dominated when their cars were dominating. Nico was consistently bitch smacked by Lewis, if it weren't for one season where Lewis blows a few motors Nico is never a champ. Lewis beat Alonso arguably in his prime in equal cars. He is now pretty handily dominating VB. Everyone always says throw anyone in a Mercedes and they will dominate but VB has been fighting a few positions back and sometimes 30 seconds behind Lewis in the same car...
Ferrari is not the inferior car everyone makes it out to be either. If it weren't for mechanical, driver and strategy errors they probably have at least 3 wins this year... Hasn't Ferrari been faster in the speed traps as well?
Personally I love to F*ck with the Hamilton haters online... Putting pins in all their arguments and watching them start to get personal about Hamilton and his fans is hysterical to me. Getting political now so watch out but I also have to say, when you watch the demographics of where the blatant racism comes from it's pretty eye opening... You can actually see the racism trends globally online and can almost predict where someone is posting from based on their comments. The further into Eastern Europe and into the Middle East you go it is just flat out racism against the guy. Some of the comments from Ferrari's Middle East fans show the mental disparity around the globe... It's scary and sad. F1 chooses to live in total denial unlike other sports that have recognized the problem though. FIFA being one of them that has a very vocal "Say No to Racism" campaign... I am not saying everyone who hates Hamilton is a racist either, that would be stupid but to deny that a good deal of the hate is blatant racism is also stupid IMO. It's too obvious to ignore it, deny it or sweep it under the rug.
Yep, I said it....
If Lewis would have started going on about how he had no where else to go on the radio, gone straight to his trailer after an incident like that, then swapped the place boards the fallout would have been MASSIVE! The insults and comments would never stop... Seb however is somehow a hero for it.
Yeah, I've been calling BS on this in F1 for years but hey, that's just me
Yeah, I've been calling BS on this in F1 for years but hey, that's just me
Historically speaking, there's only been 1 year in his career when Hamilton didn't have a competitive car and he whined and complained like no other. Granted he was younger with McLaren that year and one would like to think he's matured since then, but we only need to look at 2016 when Nico Rosberg beat LH to the championship when LH accused the team of sabotage. Anyone using the excuse of bad luck on why LH lost the championship that year only need only listen to Nico's hour long podcast when he was interviewed last year on what he had to do to win the WDC - it will give you a fresh perspective on what these guys go through on a professional level.
I'm not exactly sure how this turned into a race card thing, but I guess it's part of the offended class we have here in the US these day. If the Hamilton ball washers would have inserted Verstappen, Schumacher, Kyvet, Maldonado, etc., you would get the same reaction that Hamilton would have. Winners and whiners get all the flack.
All we need to look at is how the McLaren performed this weekend to see how much a car is worth. Did Norris and Sainz learn how to race this weekend and finish top 10 or did the car dramatically outperform what it had been doing the previous 4 years? I have to question the people on this forum that believe that the Ferrari is somehow on par with the Mercedes when we've had 8 or 9 races and Mercedes have no only won each race, but have finished 1-2 in more races than they have not! There is no competition... period.
I don't hate Hamilton or hate on him - he's simply taking advantage of the best car, most dominate car in the history of F1 and doing what he is supposed to do. He's better than Bottas. He was better than Rosberg except for 1 year. He was better than Button except for 2 years. But please don't tell me he could get in the Ferrari and somehow be competitive. You fail to take into account that Vettel's results are not only a reflection of his mistakes, but compounded by the mistakes on strategy and missteps from the pit wall that affect his point total.
I'm not exactly sure how this turned into a race card thing, but I guess it's part of the offended class we have here in the US these day. If the Hamilton ball washers would have inserted Verstappen, Schumacher, Kyvet, Maldonado, etc., you would get the same reaction that Hamilton would have. Winners and whiners get all the flack.
All we need to look at is how the McLaren performed this weekend to see how much a car is worth. Did Norris and Sainz learn how to race this weekend and finish top 10 or did the car dramatically outperform what it had been doing the previous 4 years? I have to question the people on this forum that believe that the Ferrari is somehow on par with the Mercedes when we've had 8 or 9 races and Mercedes have no only won each race, but have finished 1-2 in more races than they have not! There is no competition... period.
I don't hate Hamilton or hate on him - he's simply taking advantage of the best car, most dominate car in the history of F1 and doing what he is supposed to do. He's better than Bottas. He was better than Rosberg except for 1 year. He was better than Button except for 2 years. But please don't tell me he could get in the Ferrari and somehow be competitive. You fail to take into account that Vettel's results are not only a reflection of his mistakes, but compounded by the mistakes on strategy and missteps from the pit wall that affect his point total.
Vettel starting 7th and finishing 5th in France is inexcusable!!
Last edited by Akunob; 06-24-2019 at 04:58 PM.
06-24-2019, 04:39 PM
#140
Rennlist Member
I think Hamilton would be more in contention, and most likely leading the championship if he was driving the Ferrari.
The guy has made the right decisions in his career, and he delivers on Sunday. I don't love the guy but I respect his ability as a racer. I don't care if he parties and is designing clothes and whatever else he is doing to set up his life after F1. It doesn't interfere with his driving. He shows up for a race and delivers the goods. Rosberg had to go all in and be 100% focused in 2016 when he beat Hamilton for the WDC. I think he retired because he was mentally and physically spent at the end of the season.
The guy has made the right decisions in his career, and he delivers on Sunday. I don't love the guy but I respect his ability as a racer. I don't care if he parties and is designing clothes and whatever else he is doing to set up his life after F1. It doesn't interfere with his driving. He shows up for a race and delivers the goods. Rosberg had to go all in and be 100% focused in 2016 when he beat Hamilton for the WDC. I think he retired because he was mentally and physically spent at the end of the season.
06-24-2019, 04:58 PM
#141
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Mid-Atlantic (on land, not in the middle of the ocean)
Posts: 13,344
Received 4,529 Likes
on
2,577 Posts
PS - I think how people perceived what Vettel did with the boards at Canada was relative to the driver. About 3/4 of the grid could do what he did and people would think it was "cheeky" and with the last 1/4 it would have been perceived as being an a-hole. If Max did it everyone would have booed him, by way of example.
06-24-2019, 05:01 PM
#142
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I think Hamilton would be more in contention, and most likely leading the championship if he was driving the Ferrari.
The guy has made the right decisions in his career, and he delivers on Sunday. I don't love the guy but I respect his ability as a racer. I don't care if he parties and is designing clothes and whatever else he is doing to set up his life after F1. It doesn't interfere with his driving. He shows up for a race and delivers the goods. Rosberg had to go all in and be 100% focused in 2016 when he beat Hamilton for the WDC. I think he retired because he was mentally and physically spent at the end of the season.
The guy has made the right decisions in his career, and he delivers on Sunday. I don't love the guy but I respect his ability as a racer. I don't care if he parties and is designing clothes and whatever else he is doing to set up his life after F1. It doesn't interfere with his driving. He shows up for a race and delivers the goods. Rosberg had to go all in and be 100% focused in 2016 when he beat Hamilton for the WDC. I think he retired because he was mentally and physically spent at the end of the season.
completely agree with having to be 100% all in like Rosberg was to beat Hamilton. Regardless of how dominating his car is, he will go down as one of the best F1 drivers in history and to beat someone like him or Schumacher or Senna has to take a lot out of you.
06-24-2019, 05:40 PM
#143
If Lewis would have started going on about how he had no where else to go on the radio, gone straight to his trailer after an incident like that, then swapped the place boards the fallout would have been MASSIVE! The insults and comments would never stop... Seb however is somehow a hero for it.
Yeah, I've been calling BS on this in F1 for years but hey, that's just me
Yeah, I've been calling BS on this in F1 for years but hey, that's just me
(1) Ferrari hasn't won the driver's championship since Kimi won in 2007, that's 12 years of futility
(2) Ferrari axed their team boss (Arrivabene) after the 2018 season, (1st you axe the boss then you axe the driver)
(3) Ferrari brings in a hotshot young driver (LeClerc), and if you don't think that bothered Vettel, just look at how the team tried to protect him with team orders early in the season but the most pressure comes from
(4) Vettel was brought to Ferrari as the savior after his incredible run at Red Bull, only to watch Hamilton and Mercedes completely dominate the sport! Vettel must feel the weight of not having delivered since being brought over in 2014!!
I think Vettel's head isn't in it. His error in qualifying in France showed a driver seriously off his game! I, personally, will be watching how Ferrari handles its driver order if LeClerc continues to outperform in the #16. I think the first time Ferrari uses team orders to instruct Vettel to let LeClerc pass will be the day Vettel's retirement is cemented in his head!!
The following users liked this post:
Paul Solk (06-25-2019)
06-24-2019, 08:25 PM
#144
Originally Posted by Paul Solk
Not to mention a fan catching him randomly push a guy in a wheelchair up the hill when there were no cameras around.
The following users liked this post:
Paul Solk (06-24-2019)
06-24-2019, 09:44 PM
#145
Burning Brakes
Everyone thought Hamilton was insane for transitioning to Mercedes. Almost champion in his rookie year, champion in 2008. Strong performance from McLaren in that era and he's suddenly making a move to Mercedes. And, if I recall, he stated one of his reasons was to be part of something that paralleled what Michael did at Ferrari. That has certainly been successful. This will be 6 constructors for Merc and a 6th WDC for Hamilton.
Say what you will, but racing is a team sport. And the entirety of that team has performed incredibly well. Even last year when it started to go off the rails, they all refocused and dominated the latter half of the season. That team is connected. And we all watch someone at the top of the pile and think it's easy. Boring, absolutely. Predictable, for sure. But winning like they do isn't easy. It shows discipline, focus, and commitment at every level and say what you will, a lot of that is Lewis.
I hope the rumours are true. I hope Max ends up in the Merc and Lewis ends up in the Red car. I think we would see a couple of years of epic battles. Because I honestly do believe Hamilton brings out the best in the car.
And as much as he's a PR machine and always playing for the cameras, he never fails to thank his team. And I mean genuinely thank them. And he never fails to engage with fans and thank them. His image might be scripted, but he always seems sincere when he does those things.
F1 has changed. And I love to watch the 2000-2005 seasons. In that era we had the same conversations about Michael and Ferrari. But the battles were much closer. The personalities more varied. And the cars more special. I hope we get back to a place where F1 is indeed the ultimate in motorsport. In the interim, I will keep watching. If only to see cars going fast in a parade.
Say what you will, but racing is a team sport. And the entirety of that team has performed incredibly well. Even last year when it started to go off the rails, they all refocused and dominated the latter half of the season. That team is connected. And we all watch someone at the top of the pile and think it's easy. Boring, absolutely. Predictable, for sure. But winning like they do isn't easy. It shows discipline, focus, and commitment at every level and say what you will, a lot of that is Lewis.
I hope the rumours are true. I hope Max ends up in the Merc and Lewis ends up in the Red car. I think we would see a couple of years of epic battles. Because I honestly do believe Hamilton brings out the best in the car.
And as much as he's a PR machine and always playing for the cameras, he never fails to thank his team. And I mean genuinely thank them. And he never fails to engage with fans and thank them. His image might be scripted, but he always seems sincere when he does those things.
F1 has changed. And I love to watch the 2000-2005 seasons. In that era we had the same conversations about Michael and Ferrari. But the battles were much closer. The personalities more varied. And the cars more special. I hope we get back to a place where F1 is indeed the ultimate in motorsport. In the interim, I will keep watching. If only to see cars going fast in a parade.
06-25-2019, 03:33 PM
#146
Instructor
At least they don't lap their opponents in qualifying.
*Surreal humor intended
*Surreal humor intended
06-30-2019, 03:12 PM
#147
Instructor
It finally was a nice race today, especially the last laps. Verstappen drove amazingly after messing up his start, and Vettel, Norris and Sainz also did a very good race —the latter pulled a series of overtakes in the last stint that were ignored during the love coverage).
06-30-2019, 03:43 PM
#148
Race Car
If there was any doubt that Verstappen is on another level, that race should have crushed that idea.
Can Red Bull keep him there or will he eventually bow to an offer from another team.
Horner says "Max is happy here and we are happy to have him", while this weekend, Verstappen said "I am not here to keep finishing 3rd and 4th".
Max should do a Senna, take time off to fly and meet/congratulate the Honda race engine team in Japan.
That stuff goes a long way with the Japanese.
Before you know it, he will be getting crates delivered to RB race shop with "special engine for Max" ala Senna.
Imagine if he had a team mate that was fast enough to help with data/setup.
That was an unbelievable drive.
T
Can Red Bull keep him there or will he eventually bow to an offer from another team.
Horner says "Max is happy here and we are happy to have him", while this weekend, Verstappen said "I am not here to keep finishing 3rd and 4th".
Max should do a Senna, take time off to fly and meet/congratulate the Honda race engine team in Japan.
That stuff goes a long way with the Japanese.
Before you know it, he will be getting crates delivered to RB race shop with "special engine for Max" ala Senna.
Imagine if he had a team mate that was fast enough to help with data/setup.
That was an unbelievable drive.
T
The following users liked this post:
Paul Solk (07-01-2019)
06-30-2019, 03:49 PM
#149
Instructor
^ My understanding is that Verstappen’s contract says that if he didn’t win a race before the summer break he could go at the end of this season; otherwise he would have to stay until his current contract expires at the end of 2020. So as he won today, in theory he won’t be free to join another team until the 2021 season.
06-30-2019, 04:03 PM
#150
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
If there was any doubt that Verstappen is on another level, that race should have crushed that idea.
Can Red Bull keep him there or will he eventually bow to an offer from another team.
Horner says "Max is happy here and we are happy to have him", while this weekend, Verstappen said "I am not here to keep finishing 3rd and 4th".
Max should do a Senna, take time off to fly and meet/congratulate the Honda race engine team in Japan.
That stuff goes a long way with the Japanese.
Before you know it, he will be getting crates delivered to RB race shop with "special engine for Max" ala Senna.
Imagine if he had a team mate that was fast enough to help with data/setup.
That was an unbelievable drive.
T
Can Red Bull keep him there or will he eventually bow to an offer from another team.
Horner says "Max is happy here and we are happy to have him", while this weekend, Verstappen said "I am not here to keep finishing 3rd and 4th".
Max should do a Senna, take time off to fly and meet/congratulate the Honda race engine team in Japan.
That stuff goes a long way with the Japanese.
Before you know it, he will be getting crates delivered to RB race shop with "special engine for Max" ala Senna.
Imagine if he had a team mate that was fast enough to help with data/setup.
That was an unbelievable drive.
T
Your point about the Japanese is on point as they are very prideful. Alonso treated them poorly and soon McLaren didn't have them as an engine supplier and he was not welcomed at Red Bull when a seat opened up - Alonso's "me only" persona aside. The Japanese will bend over backwards if you show them respect and give this is their 1st GP win in a long time. (I'm not sure if this is the first GP win since Jenson Button won 10 years ago) in the Brawn?)
Max would do well to see how the 2021 regulations shake out before jumping ship.
Finally, we saw the Achilies heal of the Mercedes..... heat... as they had to open up the body work for cooling and their aero advantage coupled with their power unit muscle was negated.