Massive crash at Laguna tody?
10-28-2018, 12:13 PM
#301
It was Saturday. I was sitting under the grid shelter waiting to go out in blue solo so I guess it was at the very end of the white group session (red/white/blue/yellow/green order). They came over the radio and said red flag, dog on the track. They rolled the fire truck and a golf cart out to try and capture or shoo off the dog. The dog was between Little Bend and Tombstone somewhere. It ran off behind the pond when the truck and cart arrived on the scene. My significant other was standing by the fence nearest the track in front of the clubhouse and relayed all the dog chase details to me after I finished my session. In this case I think the red flag was more of a don't start the blue session yet than it was stop the white group on track.
10-29-2018, 07:49 PM
#302
Perfect Angel
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I understand (very well) that my position (or let's say, exposing it publicly) would make PCA (i.e.: instructors) quite unhappy.
You should take note that it is not my problem, ..but yours.
I was only thinking that expressing it could help you to solve it
..but you seems to do what we call in French the ostrish ( an animal that is known to put head into the sand when a problem raise up.)
To be more clear: do you really thing a track event, when you have 4 sessions a day is attractive ?
Above you answered that costs drive such choice.
May be cost for PCA, ..but whats about cost for "us" ?
Did you ever think that a track day, ..is a full day at track ?
how much value has a FULL day ?. Ok, it depends for each of us.
For for my case (and for many that I do know), we MUCH prefer to participate to track days offered by other organizers, ..that already understood such things.
Or, I understand that you are just IGNORING your problems, ..and that Im just loosing my time to exposing it to you.
My solution in my side is so easy: simply choosing other organizers, that DO offers track days limited to low number of cars and maximum 3 groups. (and thisiswhat I do since some good time.)
Btw, have you ever participate to track days with two groups, or even one single open group ??
If yes, ..may be, you could understand what Im talking about.
By the way, you anwer only help me in ONE direction : I hesitated last June to renew my PCA membership, and finally did it.
But after such reading, dear PCA instructor, I seriously think that I will not do that again, and remove the PCA sticker out of my P cars.
PS : About this topic, may be the same comment as above : let's move out of this topic, and if you want, create a new specific one under the chapter.
You should take note that it is not my problem, ..but yours.
I was only thinking that expressing it could help you to solve it
..but you seems to do what we call in French the ostrish ( an animal that is known to put head into the sand when a problem raise up.)
To be more clear: do you really thing a track event, when you have 4 sessions a day is attractive ?
Above you answered that costs drive such choice.
May be cost for PCA, ..but whats about cost for "us" ?
Did you ever think that a track day, ..is a full day at track ?
how much value has a FULL day ?. Ok, it depends for each of us.
For for my case (and for many that I do know), we MUCH prefer to participate to track days offered by other organizers, ..that already understood such things.
Or, I understand that you are just IGNORING your problems, ..and that Im just loosing my time to exposing it to you.
My solution in my side is so easy: simply choosing other organizers, that DO offers track days limited to low number of cars and maximum 3 groups. (and thisiswhat I do since some good time.)
Btw, have you ever participate to track days with two groups, or even one single open group ??
If yes, ..may be, you could understand what Im talking about.
By the way, you anwer only help me in ONE direction : I hesitated last June to renew my PCA membership, and finally did it.
But after such reading, dear PCA instructor, I seriously think that I will not do that again, and remove the PCA sticker out of my P cars.
PS : About this topic, may be the same comment as above : let's move out of this topic, and if you want, create a new specific one under the chapter.
That's what it is. An educational program.
It's not practice for racing. It's not a test and tune day. It's not open track.
If you expected open track then you didn't read the information very closely.
So you are insulting a whole bunch of people who volunteer their time to run the Driver's EDUCATION program because you want an open track day.
Go rent the track then big shot.
10-30-2018, 12:31 AM
#303
Rennlist Member
Yowza. You are way way way way way off base here. For starters the PCA program is called Driver's Education or DE for short. It is NOT an open track day nor is it advertised as such. It is full of new entrants to our hobby that need a place to learn and the advanced/instructors necessary to teach these newcomers. Many similar programs aren't run nearly as well or with nearly as much track time. PCA does an exemplary job of running this EDUCATIONAL program.
That's what it is. An educational program.
It's not practice for racing. It's not a test and tune day. It's not open track.
If you expected open track then you didn't read the information very closely.
So you are insulting a whole bunch of people who volunteer their time to run the Driver's EDUCATION program because you want an open track day.
Go rent the track then big shot.
That's what it is. An educational program.
It's not practice for racing. It's not a test and tune day. It's not open track.
If you expected open track then you didn't read the information very closely.
So you are insulting a whole bunch of people who volunteer their time to run the Driver's EDUCATION program because you want an open track day.
Go rent the track then big shot.
+1 well said
10-30-2018, 04:20 AM
#304
Rennlist Member
Yowza. You are way way way way way off base here. For starters the PCA program is called Driver's Education or DE for short. It is NOT an open track day nor is it advertised as such. It is full of new entrants to our hobby that need a place to learn and the advanced/instructors necessary to teach these newcomers. Many similar programs aren't run nearly as well or with nearly as much track time. PCA does an exemplary job of running this EDUCATIONAL program.
That's what it is. An educational program.
It's not practice for racing. It's not a test and tune day. It's not open track.
If you expected open track then you didn't read the information very closely.
So you are insulting a whole bunch of people who volunteer their time to run the Driver's EDUCATION program because you want an open track day.
Go rent the track then big shot.
That's what it is. An educational program.
It's not practice for racing. It's not a test and tune day. It's not open track.
If you expected open track then you didn't read the information very closely.
So you are insulting a whole bunch of people who volunteer their time to run the Driver's EDUCATION program because you want an open track day.
Go rent the track then big shot.
+2 very well said, hats off to PCA and all the other volunteers/organizations who work hard to put on these events and constantly improve them for us all.
10-31-2018, 10:57 AM
#305
Rennlist Member
10-31-2018, 11:21 AM
#306
Rennlist Member
Perhaps you could share details of your experience in the right seat, and your experience driving Porsches that have PSM. I’ve done about 200 days in the right seat (many organizations), and have done well over 200 days driving Porsche’s with PSM, with PSM both on and off. As I mentioned, I’ve also been a PCA safety chair (largest region), so I’ve looked at data and investigated incidents, and I don’t just go by my own in-car experience.
No one said PSM will always prevent spinning, but it does try, including when the throttle is lifted, and it’s usually effective.
I agree with Brian. And a quick absolutely anecdotal under-powered canvas of other instructors (some with 40+ years of racing and coaching experience) backed up my impression. Which may of course simply be confirmation bias
It's a measurement problem: there's no data that you can review for near-miss events. And what's happening with new fast cars with stability control systems is a whole buncha near-miss events that are often occult (to the novice driver), and often barely appreciated by the right seat instructor (depending on experience). Shut the systems off and I guarantee you'll be able to capture data because the spin, off, crash event rates will increase.
10-31-2018, 11:33 AM
#307
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I agree with Brian. And a quick absolutely anecdotal under-powered canvas of other instructors (some with 40+ years of racing and coaching experience) backed up my impression. Which may of course simply be confirmation bias
It's a measurement problem: there's no data that you can review for near-miss events. And what's happening with new fast cars with stability control systems is a whole buncha near-miss events that are often occult (to the novice driver), and often barely appreciated by the right seat instructor (depending on experience). Shut the systems off and I guarantee you'll be able to capture data because the spin, off, crash event rates will increase.
It's a measurement problem: there's no data that you can review for near-miss events. And what's happening with new fast cars with stability control systems is a whole buncha near-miss events that are often occult (to the novice driver), and often barely appreciated by the right seat instructor (depending on experience). Shut the systems off and I guarantee you'll be able to capture data because the spin, off, crash event rates will increase.
10-31-2018, 11:43 AM
#308
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Yowza. You are way way way way way off base here. For starters the PCA program is called Driver's Education or DE for short. It is NOT an open track day nor is it advertised as such. It is full of new entrants to our hobby that need a place to learn and the advanced/instructors necessary to teach these newcomers. Many similar programs aren't run nearly as well or with nearly as much track time. PCA does an exemplary job of running this EDUCATIONAL program.
That's what it is. An educational program.
It's not practice for racing. It's not a test and tune day. It's not open track.
If you expected open track then you didn't read the information very closely.
So you are insulting a whole bunch of people who volunteer their time to run the Driver's EDUCATION program because you want an open track day.
Go rent the track then big shot.
That's what it is. An educational program.
It's not practice for racing. It's not a test and tune day. It's not open track.
If you expected open track then you didn't read the information very closely.
So you are insulting a whole bunch of people who volunteer their time to run the Driver's EDUCATION program because you want an open track day.
Go rent the track then big shot.
If there wasn't a PCA DE program, I would not be driving on track right now.
I know there are some other options for learning to drive on track (Chin, HOD, etc.), but it was the PCA DE program that got me started a bunch of years back.
I owe a sincere debt of gratitude to our regions DE program. If it wasn't for them, and their instructors, and their volunteers, I would never have known the sheer joy of driving on a racetrack and the thrill and feeling of doing something this "special".
Insulting the entire PCA DE program is kind of a reach, but to each his own I guess.
GVA-SFO is entitled to his opinion, and it would appear that there are better options for track days for him that would be better than the PCA DE program.
On that note, I don't understand the "nose up" and "greenhorn" things that GVA-SFO is talking about.
As for "nose up in the air" comment, I have found EXACTLY the opposite to be true in the regions I run with. The people I have come to know through our PCA regions DE program are anything but stuck up, snotty, and arrogant.
As for the "greenhorn" thing, we were all there at one time or another, and without the "greenhorns", the program wouldn't exist at all. Without the new blood, the program dies a slow and painful death.
It appears that GVA-SFO was an expert driver the moment he first stepped on to a racetrack. Good for him. Most of us start as beginners, or greenhorns as he puts it. I know I did.
I think GVA could have made his points without all the insults directed at the rest of us PCA DE folks. Why do that? As soon as you throw around the insults, you lose your argument.
To each his own I guess. Sorry that GVA feels the way he does. My experience has been exactly the opposite, and for that, I am forever in the debt of our NNJR PCA DE program, as well as the rest of the regions DE programs that I am involved with.
GVA's points could have been made without the insults. No need for that.
Carry on....
10-31-2018, 01:40 PM
#309
Rennlist Member
Its time to close this thread. We no longer typing about our sympathies or thoughts regarding the awful death of a flagger and enthusiast. And that's disrespectful.
If GVA wants to troll us some more, he can do so on the other thread he started.
If GVA wants to troll us some more, he can do so on the other thread he started.
10-31-2018, 05:47 PM
#310
Rennlist Member
One of the lessons of safety research and experience is that the rate of near-miss events sometimes isn't a good indicator of the rate of full-blown incidents, and the two rates can even go in opposite directions. As far as data for near-miss events, we do have steward's logs noting spins and offs which didn't result in incidents, and when I reviewed lots of those when I was a PCA safety chair, I did find that near-misses didn't correlate well with incidents. There was a pattern that guys who had above-average rates of spins and offs tended to crash less often than you might expect, and often the guys who did crash had clean prior records on the steward's logs.
One of the concerns echoed by many experienced instructors is that novices with stability control systems aren't developing the skills necessary to first, react, and then develop proactive skills to drive ahead of the car. The hypothesis is that if you put them in a car sans stability control and/or turned their systems off... then the event (spin, off, crash) rate would be higher than what we're actually seeing.
Last edited by jdistefa; 10-31-2018 at 06:07 PM.
10-31-2018, 06:30 PM
#311
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Agree, and I get it. Quite familiar with error research literature. The challenge with the scenario we're discussing is that these 'nanny interventions' represent a spectrum of near misses that we can't capture - other than by individual experiences as observers in the right seat.
One of the concerns echoed by many experienced instructors is that novices with stability control systems aren't developing the skills necessary to first, react, and then develop proactive skills to drive ahead of the car. The hypothesis is that if you put them in a car sans stability control and/or turned their systems off... then the event (spin, off, crash) rate would be higher than what we're actually seeing.
One of the concerns echoed by many experienced instructors is that novices with stability control systems aren't developing the skills necessary to first, react, and then develop proactive skills to drive ahead of the car. The hypothesis is that if you put them in a car sans stability control and/or turned their systems off... then the event (spin, off, crash) rate would be higher than what we're actually seeing.
I agree that it's an issue if students are relying too much on PSM to compensate for lack of car control, but again, that will depend on the threshold for PSM intervention, and my experience in these cars is that an instructor should generally be able to keep the student from driving in a way that relies on PSM intervening. And again, do we have any data supporting the idea that students learning in cars with PSM on is ultimately resulting in higher rates of crashes, injuries, or fatalities? I always advise students to do skidpad, karting, etc. to develop car control, and I do the same myself.
10-31-2018, 10:31 PM
#312
Instructor
Status of donation collection
Just to wrap up the coordinated donations for the Rich Reins fund mentioned earlier in this thread.
The total of $30,000 collected by CFRA from its members and the racing community has been received by WeatherTech Raceway Laguna Seca for the Laguna Seca Raceway Fund.
Information, including where to send further donations, is provided here:
CFRA | Laguna Seca Corner Worker Donation
Thanks to everyone on Rennlist who contributed.
The total of $30,000 collected by CFRA from its members and the racing community has been received by WeatherTech Raceway Laguna Seca for the Laguna Seca Raceway Fund.
Information, including where to send further donations, is provided here:
CFRA | Laguna Seca Corner Worker Donation
Thanks to everyone on Rennlist who contributed.
