Massive crash at Laguna tody?
10-27-2018, 05:59 AM
#286
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by GVA-SFO
Sorry, VERY SORRY, ..but I FULLY disagree with you.
For my eyes, PCA is the worse organization for track days in the Bay area.
Beside the context here of the tragedy of Sunday, an engine blow up, ..or water pipes blowing up that could happen to ALL and ANY organizers.
I'm (still, but probably not for long) a member of PCA (with more than one P car !), and consider that PCA rules becomes just crazy and full of non sense.
Exactly like I'm convinced that : too much admin kills democracy.
Why I do NOT like the PCA track days :
. it sucks: too many people, a lot of green horns, ..to end up with 4 or 5 groups per day.
If all goes well, you are on track for 4 sessions per day !
Tell me why PCA track days are overcrowded, ..but when PCA organize "fun run", than max of cars is set ?
(Only one explanation ,: more car on track = more profit)
. not counting that these "too many people" spend the (track) day walking around the cars with the nose very up, in brand new unused nomex and brand new shoes with the word Porsche stitched on all possible visible place. (Looks more like a fashion day than a sport track day.)
. and more specifically, for me, as I removed my top (boxster) to have a 6 point roll bar, I have been asked (by pca rules) to have arm restraints, which, I do not want too. (Note that I use Hans since some years, so, safety I care..), but, writing rules where open roof requires arm restraints when a super thin skin hardtop or a convertible roof is fine, ..is pure B.S. for me.
(btw, I still have not understood how you can (in a gentleman manner) "point to pass" ..with arm restraints !)
These above points makes me completely avoiding pca track days, and makes me thinking that I should seriously consider to quit this club of "tourist".
I know that many of you here have strong connections with this club, (i.e. "instructors", and other doing business with this club, but still consider that I have free speech rights to express my opinion here.
To be back about organizers, I would like to strongly support ETD and mention, to have been with them last Sunday, but also the other times ETD been in LS this year, it is a very high end and high quality organizer.
Now, if for some you you, filing a form in which you engage yourself and sign that your car has for example no leak, means nothing for you, then I'm not going to write what I do think about you, and this simply to stay polite.
If you need to get the same paper from a shop, it looks to me that you are not at the age ..to drive a car. (Behaving like a child, to be accurate)
Now, if you think that a car can NEVER have a catastrophic engine blow out, I can only suppose, ..that you have to buy a bike (with pedals, not engine) and ride it slowly.
It was a tragedy last Sunday, I'm still under the shock, and I'm still very sad and continue to think deeply about it.
For my eyes, PCA is the worse organization for track days in the Bay area.
Beside the context here of the tragedy of Sunday, an engine blow up, ..or water pipes blowing up that could happen to ALL and ANY organizers.
I'm (still, but probably not for long) a member of PCA (with more than one P car !), and consider that PCA rules becomes just crazy and full of non sense.
Exactly like I'm convinced that : too much admin kills democracy.
Why I do NOT like the PCA track days :
. it sucks: too many people, a lot of green horns, ..to end up with 4 or 5 groups per day.
If all goes well, you are on track for 4 sessions per day !
Tell me why PCA track days are overcrowded, ..but when PCA organize "fun run", than max of cars is set ?
(Only one explanation ,: more car on track = more profit)
. not counting that these "too many people" spend the (track) day walking around the cars with the nose very up, in brand new unused nomex and brand new shoes with the word Porsche stitched on all possible visible place. (Looks more like a fashion day than a sport track day.)
. and more specifically, for me, as I removed my top (boxster) to have a 6 point roll bar, I have been asked (by pca rules) to have arm restraints, which, I do not want too. (Note that I use Hans since some years, so, safety I care..), but, writing rules where open roof requires arm restraints when a super thin skin hardtop or a convertible roof is fine, ..is pure B.S. for me.
(btw, I still have not understood how you can (in a gentleman manner) "point to pass" ..with arm restraints !)
These above points makes me completely avoiding pca track days, and makes me thinking that I should seriously consider to quit this club of "tourist".
I know that many of you here have strong connections with this club, (i.e. "instructors", and other doing business with this club, but still consider that I have free speech rights to express my opinion here.
To be back about organizers, I would like to strongly support ETD and mention, to have been with them last Sunday, but also the other times ETD been in LS this year, it is a very high end and high quality organizer.
Now, if for some you you, filing a form in which you engage yourself and sign that your car has for example no leak, means nothing for you, then I'm not going to write what I do think about you, and this simply to stay polite.
If you need to get the same paper from a shop, it looks to me that you are not at the age ..to drive a car. (Behaving like a child, to be accurate)
Now, if you think that a car can NEVER have a catastrophic engine blow out, I can only suppose, ..that you have to buy a bike (with pedals, not engine) and ride it slowly.
It was a tragedy last Sunday, I'm still under the shock, and I'm still very sad and continue to think deeply about it.
10-27-2018, 09:02 AM
#287
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
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Your ignorance is profound both here and in your other posts and I really can't be bothered to straighten you out with one exception. The PCA is a club run by volunteers like myself and many others here. It is not a for-profit enterprise and as such all monies in excess of operating expenses are donated to a local charity. We're not concerned with how many individuals we pack into an event, but there are certainly limits, because we're not profit driven. It's supposed to be fun and a learning experience. I donate my time so that you can have fun and I can give back. Your post is an insult to all of those volunteers, apart from being ignorant. Going forward why don't you try to be part of the solution instead of being a problem.
This is like when people complain if our region's very professional looking newsletter/magazine is a week late. The guy doing it ISN'T GETTING PAID! If he is a little late chill out and enjoy his efforts because he is a volunteer.
There are talkers and doers.
10-27-2018, 01:35 PM
#288
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by LuigiVampa
+1
This is like when people complain if our region's very professional looking newsletter/magazine is a week late. The guy doing it ISN'T GETTING PAID! If he is a little late chill out and enjoy his efforts because he is a volunteer.
There are talkers and doers.
This is like when people complain if our region's very professional looking newsletter/magazine is a week late. The guy doing it ISN'T GETTING PAID! If he is a little late chill out and enjoy his efforts because he is a volunteer.
There are talkers and doers.
10-27-2018, 03:06 PM
#289
I understand (very well) that my position (or let's say, exposing it publicly) would make PCA (i.e.: instructors) quite unhappy.
You should take note that it is not my problem, ..but yours.
I was only thinking that expressing it could help you to solve it
..but you seems to do what we call in French the ostrish ( an animal that is known to put head into the sand when a problem raise up.)
To be more clear: do you really thing a track event, when you have 4 sessions a day is attractive ?
Above you answered that costs drive such choice.
May be cost for PCA, ..but whats about cost for "us" ?
Did you ever think that a track day, ..is a full day at track ?
how much value has a FULL day ?. Ok, it depends for each of us.
For for my case (and for many that I do know), we MUCH prefer to participate to track days offered by other organizers, ..that already understood such things.
Or, I understand that you are just IGNORING your problems, ..and that Im just loosing my time to exposing it to you.
My solution in my side is so easy: simply choosing other organizers, that DO offers track days limited to low number of cars and maximum 3 groups. (and thisiswhat I do since some good time.)
Btw, have you ever participate to track days with two groups, or even one single open group ??
If yes, ..may be, you could understand what Im talking about.
By the way, you anwer only help me in ONE direction : I hesitated last June to renew my PCA membership, and finally did it.
But after such reading, dear PCA instructor, I seriously think that I will not do that again, and remove the PCA sticker out of my P cars.
PS : About this topic, may be the same comment as above : let's move out of this topic, and if you want, create a new specific one under the chapter.
You should take note that it is not my problem, ..but yours.
I was only thinking that expressing it could help you to solve it
..but you seems to do what we call in French the ostrish ( an animal that is known to put head into the sand when a problem raise up.)
To be more clear: do you really thing a track event, when you have 4 sessions a day is attractive ?
Above you answered that costs drive such choice.
May be cost for PCA, ..but whats about cost for "us" ?
Did you ever think that a track day, ..is a full day at track ?
how much value has a FULL day ?. Ok, it depends for each of us.
For for my case (and for many that I do know), we MUCH prefer to participate to track days offered by other organizers, ..that already understood such things.
Or, I understand that you are just IGNORING your problems, ..and that Im just loosing my time to exposing it to you.
My solution in my side is so easy: simply choosing other organizers, that DO offers track days limited to low number of cars and maximum 3 groups. (and thisiswhat I do since some good time.)
Btw, have you ever participate to track days with two groups, or even one single open group ??
If yes, ..may be, you could understand what Im talking about.
By the way, you anwer only help me in ONE direction : I hesitated last June to renew my PCA membership, and finally did it.
But after such reading, dear PCA instructor, I seriously think that I will not do that again, and remove the PCA sticker out of my P cars.
PS : About this topic, may be the same comment as above : let's move out of this topic, and if you want, create a new specific one under the chapter.
Last edited by GVA-SFO; 10-27-2018 at 03:34 PM.
10-27-2018, 03:58 PM
#290
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So sad for this tragic loss of a kindred spirit who loved this sport/hobby we all love.
I've only done 19 track days so far in my 1.5 years in this hobby. I've driven with 3 different PCA regions running HPDEs on 3 different tracks, plus Chin Track Days at Barber, and Apex Driving Academy at MSR Cresson. All have varying plus and minus attributes for safety rules and general rules for behavior on track. I've been surprised actually at how much things differ from region to region, organization to organization. I see some changes happening at all the PCA regions I've run with that indicate they are leaning more towards satisfying owners of the faster off-the-showroom-floor cars we are so lucky to be able to buy these days. I'm trying a new (to me) organization in December that looks to be sticking more to the old school HPDE approach of learning the craft more than satisfying those who just want to see how fast they can go around the track with nannies on. Not putting down those who want to see how fast they can go around the track with nannies on, but that is not my primary goal at this stage of my involvement in the hobby.
I'll just throw this out there for people to sling mud at. Yes, it would require more investment in communications equipment, but IMO would be worth it. All drivers, corner workers and track marshals could have a live communication system where drivers were receive only, but corner workers and marshals would have transmit/receive. Any corner worker at any time could go hot mike and announce a hazard on track. Apex Driving Academy does this with an FM radio live channel 88.9 during HPDEs. It's a problem if you have a car without an FM radio, but it is really, really, nice to hear when something has happened anywhere on the track at almost the instant it is recognized by a safety worker. One of the local PCA regions adopted a limited version of this FM radio approach at MSR Cresson at the last DE and it was a big step forward, IMO. Don't know why they limited it to only checkered flag and red flag (there was a stray dog on the track that caused a red flag), but that was their planned trial use of the FM system, not use it for yellows, only checkered and red.
Back in my foxhole now.
I've only done 19 track days so far in my 1.5 years in this hobby. I've driven with 3 different PCA regions running HPDEs on 3 different tracks, plus Chin Track Days at Barber, and Apex Driving Academy at MSR Cresson. All have varying plus and minus attributes for safety rules and general rules for behavior on track. I've been surprised actually at how much things differ from region to region, organization to organization. I see some changes happening at all the PCA regions I've run with that indicate they are leaning more towards satisfying owners of the faster off-the-showroom-floor cars we are so lucky to be able to buy these days. I'm trying a new (to me) organization in December that looks to be sticking more to the old school HPDE approach of learning the craft more than satisfying those who just want to see how fast they can go around the track with nannies on. Not putting down those who want to see how fast they can go around the track with nannies on, but that is not my primary goal at this stage of my involvement in the hobby.
I'll just throw this out there for people to sling mud at. Yes, it would require more investment in communications equipment, but IMO would be worth it. All drivers, corner workers and track marshals could have a live communication system where drivers were receive only, but corner workers and marshals would have transmit/receive. Any corner worker at any time could go hot mike and announce a hazard on track. Apex Driving Academy does this with an FM radio live channel 88.9 during HPDEs. It's a problem if you have a car without an FM radio, but it is really, really, nice to hear when something has happened anywhere on the track at almost the instant it is recognized by a safety worker. One of the local PCA regions adopted a limited version of this FM radio approach at MSR Cresson at the last DE and it was a big step forward, IMO. Don't know why they limited it to only checkered flag and red flag (there was a stray dog on the track that caused a red flag), but that was their planned trial use of the FM system, not use it for yellows, only checkered and red.
Back in my foxhole now.
Last edited by okie981; 10-27-2018 at 05:18 PM.
10-27-2018, 04:27 PM
#291
One of the local PCA regions adopted a limited version of this FM radio approach at MSR Cresson at the last DE and it was a big step forward, IMO. Don't know why they limited it to only checkered flag and red flag (there was a stray dog on the track that caused a red flag), but that was their planned trial use of the FM system, not use it for yellows, only checkered and red.
Back in my foxhole now.
Back in my foxhole now.
10-27-2018, 06:50 PM
#293
The FM radio is intriguing, but two issues: 1) A lot of track cars do not have FM radios. 2) FM is licensed spectrum and unlicensed operation is severely power/antenna limited - plus interference is a real problem in a lot of areas. The second issue means it may be difficult to get full coverage at a track anywhere near an urban center. It seems like there is a station everywhere on the FM dial these days including the 88s.
I use an FM transmitter in my house to share music and I ended up going with a cable system instead of antennas because of performance issues/interference.
Now if tracks could somehow get a low power license, maybe even on the AM band, that could work better. Also, most track cars do not have an AM/FM radio today because it is useless - if one could receive flagging notices on it then it would not be tough to re-install them in most track cars.
-Mike
I use an FM transmitter in my house to share music and I ended up going with a cable system instead of antennas because of performance issues/interference.
Now if tracks could somehow get a low power license, maybe even on the AM band, that could work better. Also, most track cars do not have an AM/FM radio today because it is useless - if one could receive flagging notices on it then it would not be tough to re-install them in most track cars.
-Mike
10-27-2018, 08:01 PM
#294
I was there. What group was the red flag in? Nobody in my circle mentioned anything - all groups represented.
Did not appear to be an issue at MSRC that weekend. It was a trial in addition to flag usage. The only group it wasn't used in was the green group. When the green group was on the 1.7 other solo groups were allowed on the 1.3 - not to cause interference between different groups on different tracks.
The FM radio is intriguing, but two issues: 1) A lot of track cars do not have FM radios. 2) FM is licensed spectrum and unlicensed operation is severely power/antenna limited - plus interference is a real problem in a lot of areas. The second issue means it may be difficult to get full coverage at a track anywhere near an urban center. It seems like there is a station everywhere on the FM dial these days including the 88s.
10-27-2018, 10:02 PM
#295
Instructor
Where did you get the impression that PSM won't work to prevent spinning due to throttle lift? That doesn't make sense, and doesn't fit with what the owner's manual implies, e.g. http://www.porscheownersmanuals.com/...8PSM%29+pg.160.
"The system compensates for undesired vehicle reactions (Ferraria effect) when the driver releases the accelerator pedal or brakes on bends. This compensation functions up to the maximum lateral acceleration."
"The system compensates for undesired vehicle reactions (Ferraria effect) when the driver releases the accelerator pedal or brakes on bends. This compensation functions up to the maximum lateral acceleration."
Turn 8 at COTA on several occasions with multiple students. East track at Wild Horse Pass turn 4. Other tracks as well...
2 of which were driving Porsche GT3RS. one driving a 981. Both GT3RS drivers recovered by using a large amount of counter steering and application of more throttle (which I had earlier explained to them to do if the car should start to off throttle over steer.) The 981 driver anticipated it better ( I had warned her of it) and only had to counter steer a small amount and added a large amount of throttle; she was very impressed with herself.
PSM would not have prevented any of those cars from over rotating.
You can trust and believe in the PSM nannies and the tooth fairy. I don't.
10-27-2018, 11:25 PM
#296
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My experience sitting in the right seat watching them attempt stupid stuff and not following instruction until after they have an near miss incident. The cars are so good that many newer participants do not realize how much the computer is doing adjusting the throttle and applying the individual brakes to keep the car "under control". Many, the majority of experienced instructors, with whom I have discussed this to see if I am alone in this opinion formed from obversation, have agreed whole heartedly with me; some even more adamantly than I.Where?
Turn 8 at COTA on several occasions with multiple students. East track at Wild Horse Pass turn 4. Other tracks as well...
2 of which were driving Porsche GT3RS. one driving a 981. Both GT3RS drivers recovered by using a large amount of counter steering and application of more throttle (which I had earlier explained to them to do if the car should start to off throttle over steer.) The 981 driver anticipated it better ( I had warned her of it) and only had to counter steer a small amount and added a large amount of throttle; she was very impressed with herself.
PSM would not have prevented any of those cars from over rotating.
You can trust and believe in the PSM nannies and the tooth fairy. I don't.
Turn 8 at COTA on several occasions with multiple students. East track at Wild Horse Pass turn 4. Other tracks as well...
2 of which were driving Porsche GT3RS. one driving a 981. Both GT3RS drivers recovered by using a large amount of counter steering and application of more throttle (which I had earlier explained to them to do if the car should start to off throttle over steer.) The 981 driver anticipated it better ( I had warned her of it) and only had to counter steer a small amount and added a large amount of throttle; she was very impressed with herself.
PSM would not have prevented any of those cars from over rotating.
You can trust and believe in the PSM nannies and the tooth fairy. I don't.
No one said PSM will always prevent spinning, but it does try, including when the throttle is lifted, and it’s usually effective.
Bottom line - if you don’t feel comfortable instructing in particular cars, or aren’t qualified to do so, don’t instruct in them, or don’t instruct at events where those cars show up.
10-27-2018, 11:57 PM
#297
10-28-2018, 11:00 AM
#298
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The FM radio is intriguing, but two issues: 1) A lot of track cars do not have FM radios. 2) FM is licensed spectrum and unlicensed operation is severely power/antenna limited - plus interference is a real problem in a lot of areas. The second issue means it may be difficult to get full coverage at a track anywhere near an urban center. It seems like there is a station everywhere on the FM dial these days including the 88s
It was Saturday. I was sitting under the grid shelter waiting to go out in blue solo so I guess it was at the very end of the white group session (red/white/blue/yellow/green order). They came over the radio and said red flag, dog on the track. They rolled the fire truck and a golf cart out to try and capture or shoo off the dog. The dog was between Little Bend and Tombstone somewhere. It ran off behind the pond when the truck and cart arrived on the scene. My significant other was standing by the fence nearest the track in front of the clubhouse and relayed all the dog chase details to me after I finished my session. In this case I think the red flag was more of a don't start the blue session yet than it was stop the white group on track.
10-28-2018, 11:20 AM
#299
Did not appear to be an issue at MSRC that weekend. It was a trial in addition to flag usage. The only group it wasn't used in was the green group. When the green group was on the 1.7 other solo groups were allowed on the 1.3 - not to cause interference between different groups on different tracks.
-Mike
*Back in grad school I noticed that my rooftop TV antenna on some days would pick up TV stations 300+ miles away clear as a bell and other times those channels were just snow. Even the target TV station, 100 miles away (it was the middle of nowhere), receptions was a bit variable. I asked one of the EMAG profs about it and he stated if I could figure it out I'd get a Nobel prize. While the scale here is much smaller, the same problem exists.
10-28-2018, 11:47 AM
#300
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F1, IndyCar, NASCAR, many others use radios for voice and signal communications, so obviously this is something that can be accomplished with high reliability. I think NASCAR spotters are as much for safety as for maneuvering for position. Of course the associated cost is another discussion.