View Poll Results: Which passing rules are better?
Current
59
85.51%
Proposed
10
14.49%
Voters: 69. You may not vote on this poll
PCA passing rules
08-05-2017, 08:12 PM
#31
Banned
Thread Starter
The line I made bold is the most important line. PCA is NOT meant to be like other racing. PCA is meant to be gentleman's racing with NO exchange of paint. If you think there's a chance of contact you are expected to back off, even a small chance. If you want more aggressive racing than that go to a different racing club event.
Are you saying that the rules as they stand, allowing racers to arbitrarily deny racing room to fellow racers are safer and more gentlemen-like than the proposed rule whose imperative is leaving racing room and co-existence, and not much else?
08-05-2017, 08:20 PM
#32
This poll/thread has nothing to do with that thread, that incident, or with me. Just imagine someone else had started it. If you think there's nothing to add or contribute, feel free to disregard.
08-05-2017, 08:32 PM
#33
Banned
Thread Starter
Here are the rules in other series very similar to ours:
POC (13/13 rule):
9.2 PASSING RESPONSIBILITY
The responsibility to pass another car safely ultimately rests with the overtaking driver. The overtaking driver must realize that he has an advantage over the overtaken driver. The overtaking driver has a better view of the car in the lead, than the driver in the lead car has of the overtaking car. The driver of the car in the lead has an obligation to remain as aware, as possible, of passing vehicles and conduct himself in a safe and sportsman-like manner. A pass is defined as being completed when the front bumper of the overtaking car breaks the plane of the front bumper of the overtaken car. At that point, the overtaking car becomes the lead car and the responsibility shifts to the overtaken car in regards to passing safety.
On a straightaway, the overtaken driver shall remain aware of all passing vehicles and shall not attempt to block or impede the progress of passing car(s).
In the corners, the car in the lead at the “turn in point” of a corner has the “right of way” to the apex. Overtaking drivers that “dive” into a corner late, after the turn- in point, will likely be held responsible for any incident, regardless of whether or not the overtaking car’s front bumper broke the plane of the overtaken car, before contact was made.
If a car establishes position (equal side by side) with another car, before the “turn in point,” then the cars share the corner. They coexist and give racing room to each other.
If a car establishes partial position (less than nose to nose) with another car before the “turn in point,” then the overtaken driver will leave racing room if possible. Most corners and most situations allow for coexistence when the overtaking car has established reasonable, but not complete position. However, the overtaking driver is responsible to know which corners and which situations are reasonable for coexistence and which are not. The overtaking driver must be cautious and understand the potential risk of the driver in the lead not seeing him. The overtaking driver must realize he is ultimately responsible for a safe pass and be ready to “back out” if necessary to avoid contact.
If a slower car is being lapped or passed by faster traffic, it is courteous for the driver in the slower car to point the faster cars by and give racing room in the corners. The overtaking driver must be cautious and understand the potential risk of the slower driver not seeing him or misjudging the speed differential. The overtaking driver must realize that without a “point by” he is ultimately responsible for the safe pass of slow or lapped traffic.
PBOC (13/13 rule):
PASSING RESPONSIBILITY
39.0 a NO ONE IN PBOC OWNS THE TRACK
39.0 b NO ONE IN PBOC OWNS THE TURN
39.0 c NO ONE IN PBOC OWNS THE LINE
39.0 d BLOCKING IS NOT ALLOWED IN PBOC
39.0 e In PBOC Racing, one line change is allowed when appropriate to defend position, however, multiple line changes, weaving and other forms of deliberate blocking are not allowed and shall result in black flag or one lap penalty
39.0 f The responsibility to pass safely in a turn rests with both drivers.
39.0 g The passing driver must realize that he has an advantage over the lead driver. The passing driver has a better
view of the car in the lead, than the driver in the lead car has of the passing car.
39.0 h The driver of the car in the lead has an obligation to remain as aware, as possible, of passing vehicles and conduct himself in a safe and sportsman like manner.
39.0 i If a defensive line is to be used, it must be established well in advance of the approaching car.
39.0 j On a straightaway, the overtaken driver shall remain aware of all passing vehicles and shall not attempt to block
or impede the progress of passing car(s).
39.0 k If a car establishes position (equal side by side) with another car, before the “turn in point”, then the cars share the corner. They coexist and give racing room to each other.
39.0 L If a car establishes a partial side position (less than nose to nose) with another car before the “turn in point”, then the lead driver will leave enough room for the other car to safely get thru the corner. Most corners and most situations allow for coexistence when the overtaking car has established reasonable, but not complete position.
39.0 m However, the overtaking driver is responsible to know which corners and which situations are reasonable for coexistence and which are not. The overtaking driver must be cautious and understand the potential risk of the driver in the lead not seeing him.
39.0 n Coming into a turn the overtaking driver must realize if he does not have any part of his car along side the lead car and he can not complete a safe pass he needs to be ready to “back out” if necessary to avoid contact.
In PBOC Racing, one line change is allowed when appropriate to defend position, however, multiple line changes, weaving and other forms of deliberate blocking are not allowed and shall result in black flag or one lap penalty
39.0 o If a slower car is being lapped or passed by faster traffic, it is courteous for the driver in the slower car to point the faster cars by and stay on the race line and must give racing room in the corners. The overtaking driver must be cautious and understand the potential risk of the slower driver not seeing him or misjudging the speed differential.
BMWCCA (13/13 rule):
4. On Course Driver Conduct
A. It is the driver’s responsibility to avoid contact between cars on the race
track.
B. Each competitor has a right to racing room, which is generally defined as sufficient space on the marked racing surface that under racing conditions, a driver can maintain control of his car in close quarters.
C. Drivers must respect the right of other competitors to racing room. Abrupt changes in direction that impede or affect the path of another car attempting to overtake or pass may be interpreted as an effort to deprive a fellow competitor of the right to racing room.
D. The overtaking driver is responsible for the decision to pass another car and to accomplish it safely. The overtaken driver is responsible to be aware that he is being passed and not to impede or block the overtaking car. A driver who does not use his rear view mirror or who appears to be blocking another car attempting to pass may be black flagged and/or penalized.
NASA 13/13 rules exists in GTS category with a modification of the "racing room" definition from 3/4 car to one car plus 6":
25.4 Rules for Overtaking 25.4.1 Passing General
The responsibility for the decision to pass another car, and to do it safely, rests with the overtaking driver. The overtaken driver should be aware that he/she is being passed and must not impede the pass by blocking. A driver who does not watch his/her mirrors or who appears to be blocking another car seeking a pass may be black-flagged and/or penalized. The act of passing is initiated when the trailing car’s (Car A) front bumper overlaps with the lead car’s (Car B) rear bumper. The act of passing is complete when Car A’s rear bumper is ahead of Car B’s front bumper. “NO PASSING” means a pass cannot even be initiated. Any overlap in a NO PASSING area is considered illegal.
25.4.2 Punting
The term “punting” is defined as nose to tail (or side-of-the-nose to side-of-the-tail) contact, where the leading car is significantly knocked off of the racing line. Once the trailing car has its front wheel next to the driver of the other vehicle, it is considered that the trailing car has a right to be there. And, that the leading driver must leave the trailing driver enough “racing room.” In most cases, “racing room” is defined as “at least three quarters of one car width.” If adequate racing room is left for the trailing car, and there is incidental contact made between the cars, the contact will be considered “side-to-side.” In most cases, incidental side-to-side contact is considered to be “just a racing incident.” If, in the case of side-to-side contact, one of the two cars leaves the racing surface (involuntarily) then it may still be considered “a racing incident.”
25.4.3 Right to the Line
The driver in front has the right to choose any line, as long as they are not considered to be blocking. The driver in front loses the right to choose his or her line when the overtaking driver has their front wheel next to the driver. Note: This rule may be superseded by class specific rules.
AER (contact is strictly forbidden by the rules but nit called a "13" as the penalties are different)
9. Passing
9.1. Every competitor has the right to racing room, which is defined as sufficient space on the paved racing surface that under race conditions a driver can maintain control of his car in close quarters.
9.2. The car entirely in front has the right to choose any position on track, so long as it is not considered to be blocking. Blocking is defined when a driver makes two or more line changes in an attempt to prevent the trailing car from passing.
9.3. A driver who does not use his mirrors or appears to be blocking another car attempting to pass may be black flagged, and may be penalized.
9.4. Ultimately, the decision to make a pass and do so safely solely rests with the overtaking car. The car being overtaken should be situationally aware of the fact that they are being overtaken, and not make any sudden or unpredictable moves or blocks to impede the ability of the overtaking driver to pass.
9.5. When possible and when it becomes apparent that a pass is going to occur, it is a courtesy and strongly suggested that the car being passed to indicate to the passing car on which side they would like to be passed on.
9.6. Cars who are not racing in the same class are strongly encouraged to work with each other to effectuate a prompt and safe pass. Drivers should be aware that they may come upon a situation where two other cars are in a heated battle in their respective class and should try to accommodate any passing required without holding up that battle. It should be noted that this applies to classes faster and slower than you.
In a nutshell the PCA rule fails to address what actually happens on track. The PCA rule also fails to address overlap while every other series does. PCA fails to advise the overtaken driver of their responsibility. All the other series put awareness and racing room as the overarching responsibility of ALL drivers and secondly establishes primary responsibility to the overtaking driver. These other series have language that prevents the lead car from using the passing rule as a weapon.
I just don't understand the resistance to a common sense acknowledgement that overlap is a real thing on track. Seems like everybody else can understand it but PCA.
Also worth noting the way I read the other series rules, particularly the issue of the overtaking driver having track knowledge to know where a safe pass is and isn't advised, the orange car from that other thread would still have been found at fault in that case.
POC (13/13 rule):
9.2 PASSING RESPONSIBILITY
The responsibility to pass another car safely ultimately rests with the overtaking driver. The overtaking driver must realize that he has an advantage over the overtaken driver. The overtaking driver has a better view of the car in the lead, than the driver in the lead car has of the overtaking car. The driver of the car in the lead has an obligation to remain as aware, as possible, of passing vehicles and conduct himself in a safe and sportsman-like manner. A pass is defined as being completed when the front bumper of the overtaking car breaks the plane of the front bumper of the overtaken car. At that point, the overtaking car becomes the lead car and the responsibility shifts to the overtaken car in regards to passing safety.
On a straightaway, the overtaken driver shall remain aware of all passing vehicles and shall not attempt to block or impede the progress of passing car(s).
In the corners, the car in the lead at the “turn in point” of a corner has the “right of way” to the apex. Overtaking drivers that “dive” into a corner late, after the turn- in point, will likely be held responsible for any incident, regardless of whether or not the overtaking car’s front bumper broke the plane of the overtaken car, before contact was made.
If a car establishes position (equal side by side) with another car, before the “turn in point,” then the cars share the corner. They coexist and give racing room to each other.
If a car establishes partial position (less than nose to nose) with another car before the “turn in point,” then the overtaken driver will leave racing room if possible. Most corners and most situations allow for coexistence when the overtaking car has established reasonable, but not complete position. However, the overtaking driver is responsible to know which corners and which situations are reasonable for coexistence and which are not. The overtaking driver must be cautious and understand the potential risk of the driver in the lead not seeing him. The overtaking driver must realize he is ultimately responsible for a safe pass and be ready to “back out” if necessary to avoid contact.
If a slower car is being lapped or passed by faster traffic, it is courteous for the driver in the slower car to point the faster cars by and give racing room in the corners. The overtaking driver must be cautious and understand the potential risk of the slower driver not seeing him or misjudging the speed differential. The overtaking driver must realize that without a “point by” he is ultimately responsible for the safe pass of slow or lapped traffic.
PBOC (13/13 rule):
PASSING RESPONSIBILITY
39.0 a NO ONE IN PBOC OWNS THE TRACK
39.0 b NO ONE IN PBOC OWNS THE TURN
39.0 c NO ONE IN PBOC OWNS THE LINE
39.0 d BLOCKING IS NOT ALLOWED IN PBOC
39.0 e In PBOC Racing, one line change is allowed when appropriate to defend position, however, multiple line changes, weaving and other forms of deliberate blocking are not allowed and shall result in black flag or one lap penalty
39.0 f The responsibility to pass safely in a turn rests with both drivers.
39.0 g The passing driver must realize that he has an advantage over the lead driver. The passing driver has a better
view of the car in the lead, than the driver in the lead car has of the passing car.
39.0 h The driver of the car in the lead has an obligation to remain as aware, as possible, of passing vehicles and conduct himself in a safe and sportsman like manner.
39.0 i If a defensive line is to be used, it must be established well in advance of the approaching car.
39.0 j On a straightaway, the overtaken driver shall remain aware of all passing vehicles and shall not attempt to block
or impede the progress of passing car(s).
39.0 k If a car establishes position (equal side by side) with another car, before the “turn in point”, then the cars share the corner. They coexist and give racing room to each other.
39.0 L If a car establishes a partial side position (less than nose to nose) with another car before the “turn in point”, then the lead driver will leave enough room for the other car to safely get thru the corner. Most corners and most situations allow for coexistence when the overtaking car has established reasonable, but not complete position.
39.0 m However, the overtaking driver is responsible to know which corners and which situations are reasonable for coexistence and which are not. The overtaking driver must be cautious and understand the potential risk of the driver in the lead not seeing him.
39.0 n Coming into a turn the overtaking driver must realize if he does not have any part of his car along side the lead car and he can not complete a safe pass he needs to be ready to “back out” if necessary to avoid contact.
In PBOC Racing, one line change is allowed when appropriate to defend position, however, multiple line changes, weaving and other forms of deliberate blocking are not allowed and shall result in black flag or one lap penalty
39.0 o If a slower car is being lapped or passed by faster traffic, it is courteous for the driver in the slower car to point the faster cars by and stay on the race line and must give racing room in the corners. The overtaking driver must be cautious and understand the potential risk of the slower driver not seeing him or misjudging the speed differential.
BMWCCA (13/13 rule):
4. On Course Driver Conduct
A. It is the driver’s responsibility to avoid contact between cars on the race
track.
B. Each competitor has a right to racing room, which is generally defined as sufficient space on the marked racing surface that under racing conditions, a driver can maintain control of his car in close quarters.
C. Drivers must respect the right of other competitors to racing room. Abrupt changes in direction that impede or affect the path of another car attempting to overtake or pass may be interpreted as an effort to deprive a fellow competitor of the right to racing room.
D. The overtaking driver is responsible for the decision to pass another car and to accomplish it safely. The overtaken driver is responsible to be aware that he is being passed and not to impede or block the overtaking car. A driver who does not use his rear view mirror or who appears to be blocking another car attempting to pass may be black flagged and/or penalized.
NASA 13/13 rules exists in GTS category with a modification of the "racing room" definition from 3/4 car to one car plus 6":
25.4 Rules for Overtaking 25.4.1 Passing General
The responsibility for the decision to pass another car, and to do it safely, rests with the overtaking driver. The overtaken driver should be aware that he/she is being passed and must not impede the pass by blocking. A driver who does not watch his/her mirrors or who appears to be blocking another car seeking a pass may be black-flagged and/or penalized. The act of passing is initiated when the trailing car’s (Car A) front bumper overlaps with the lead car’s (Car B) rear bumper. The act of passing is complete when Car A’s rear bumper is ahead of Car B’s front bumper. “NO PASSING” means a pass cannot even be initiated. Any overlap in a NO PASSING area is considered illegal.
25.4.2 Punting
The term “punting” is defined as nose to tail (or side-of-the-nose to side-of-the-tail) contact, where the leading car is significantly knocked off of the racing line. Once the trailing car has its front wheel next to the driver of the other vehicle, it is considered that the trailing car has a right to be there. And, that the leading driver must leave the trailing driver enough “racing room.” In most cases, “racing room” is defined as “at least three quarters of one car width.” If adequate racing room is left for the trailing car, and there is incidental contact made between the cars, the contact will be considered “side-to-side.” In most cases, incidental side-to-side contact is considered to be “just a racing incident.” If, in the case of side-to-side contact, one of the two cars leaves the racing surface (involuntarily) then it may still be considered “a racing incident.”
25.4.3 Right to the Line
The driver in front has the right to choose any line, as long as they are not considered to be blocking. The driver in front loses the right to choose his or her line when the overtaking driver has their front wheel next to the driver. Note: This rule may be superseded by class specific rules.
AER (contact is strictly forbidden by the rules but nit called a "13" as the penalties are different)
9. Passing
9.1. Every competitor has the right to racing room, which is defined as sufficient space on the paved racing surface that under race conditions a driver can maintain control of his car in close quarters.
9.2. The car entirely in front has the right to choose any position on track, so long as it is not considered to be blocking. Blocking is defined when a driver makes two or more line changes in an attempt to prevent the trailing car from passing.
9.3. A driver who does not use his mirrors or appears to be blocking another car attempting to pass may be black flagged, and may be penalized.
9.4. Ultimately, the decision to make a pass and do so safely solely rests with the overtaking car. The car being overtaken should be situationally aware of the fact that they are being overtaken, and not make any sudden or unpredictable moves or blocks to impede the ability of the overtaking driver to pass.
9.5. When possible and when it becomes apparent that a pass is going to occur, it is a courtesy and strongly suggested that the car being passed to indicate to the passing car on which side they would like to be passed on.
9.6. Cars who are not racing in the same class are strongly encouraged to work with each other to effectuate a prompt and safe pass. Drivers should be aware that they may come upon a situation where two other cars are in a heated battle in their respective class and should try to accommodate any passing required without holding up that battle. It should be noted that this applies to classes faster and slower than you.
In a nutshell the PCA rule fails to address what actually happens on track. The PCA rule also fails to address overlap while every other series does. PCA fails to advise the overtaken driver of their responsibility. All the other series put awareness and racing room as the overarching responsibility of ALL drivers and secondly establishes primary responsibility to the overtaking driver. These other series have language that prevents the lead car from using the passing rule as a weapon.
I just don't understand the resistance to a common sense acknowledgement that overlap is a real thing on track. Seems like everybody else can understand it but PCA.
Also worth noting the way I read the other series rules, particularly the issue of the overtaking driver having track knowledge to know where a safe pass is and isn't advised, the orange car from that other thread would still have been found at fault in that case.
Thanks for retrieving all the quotes. Quite useful and pertinent.
08-05-2017, 08:36 PM
#35
Banned
Thread Starter
Please, if you won't make any constructive contributions to the thread, may I suggest that you stop reading it and posting to it? Lucky for you, RL rules don't make reading and posting mandatory.
08-05-2017, 08:38 PM
#36
Banned
Thread Starter
08-05-2017, 08:46 PM
#37
Perfect Angel
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Pho King Fast
Dude just don't hit anybody and don't let anybody hit you. It's that simple.
08-05-2017, 09:05 PM
#39
Rennlist Member
The other thing to remember is that no matter what the rules are, there is going to some variability in the interpretation of rules by the stewards. It is evident even at F1 level
08-05-2017, 09:06 PM
#40
Perfect Angel
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by MSR Racer
The other thing to remember is that no matter what the rules are, there is going to some variability in the interpretation of rules by the stewards. It is evident even at F1 level
08-05-2017, 09:58 PM
#43
So we were supposed to believe the last thread was hypothetical by someone not involved
Your arguments in your appeal were based on hypothetical examples
In this thread we should imagine it was hypothetically not connected with the prior thread and hypothetically it's not a further attempt to justify your own behavior
Those who criticize you are drama queens
You have done no wrong.
Anyone else see a pattern?
Your arguments in your appeal were based on hypothetical examples
In this thread we should imagine it was hypothetically not connected with the prior thread and hypothetically it's not a further attempt to justify your own behavior
Those who criticize you are drama queens
You have done no wrong.
Anyone else see a pattern?
08-05-2017, 10:01 PM
#44
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Paul Solk
So we were supposed to believe the last thread was hypothetical by someone not involved
Your arguments in your appeal were based on hypothetical examples
In this thread we should imagine it was hypothetically not connected with the prior thread and hypothetically it's not a further attempt to justify your own behavior
Those who criticize you are drama queens
You have done no wrong.
Anyone else see a pattern?
Your arguments in your appeal were based on hypothetical examples
In this thread we should imagine it was hypothetically not connected with the prior thread and hypothetically it's not a further attempt to justify your own behavior
Those who criticize you are drama queens
You have done no wrong.
Anyone else see a pattern?
08-05-2017, 11:14 PM
#45
Banned
Thread Starter