M758

Now this is a load of CRAP.

gabbagabbahey

Is ABS mandated? Why not let the marketplace decide on whether stability control is a worthwhile feature? 911 GT3, Lotus Elise, Ford GT's, Dodge Vipers owners manage to drive their cars w/o crashing on a daily basis. If required, lawyers / insurance co's will be salivating to look at a cars computer (if it records the on/off status) to lay blame regardless of the circumstances.

Bob Rouleau

Nick - (by the way, I enjoy the mooting) it seems to me that you are making an assumption, to wit, PSM is a valuable safety device.

Neither of us know that for sure. Someday a study will be done which establishes whether or not PSM does any good or not and under what circumstances. Right now, nobody knows. I caution you not to make assumptions.

Do you remember when ABS came out? To everyone (including me) ABS was an obvious safety feature. We were wrong. A comprehensive study showed that ABS had no effect in reducing accidents.

My observations at DE make me wonder. PSM can make a driver feel like a hero, masking serious driving errors until the laws of physics are exceeded. Perhaps a little slip or slide now and then provides useful feedback to an unskilled driver - teaches him the limits of his car and perhaps some respect.

Rgds,

pcar964

PSM, traction control, ABS - the purpose of these devices is to eliminate personal responsibility under the guise of safety. Don't worry about paying attention to the road surface, ABS will jump in and save your ***. Don't worry about learning car control, a computer will take care of it for you.

In my opinion, these devices make driving MORE DANGEROUS - kids growing up with these "safety features" never learn respect for a car's limits, or for the responsibility of driving a 2 ton steel vehicle. It's like a video game to them.

gabbagabbahey

Excellent points. What % of drivers engage PSM at DE? I've read that Porsches latest version are less intrusive, so perhaps are better at alerting drivers to boundary conditions?

For sure stability control has proven its worth in changing street conditions like black ice etc.

Claims already at 56%: http://www.iihs.org/sr/pdfs/sr4001.pdf

but it is an aid and not a driver replacement and at over 150 mph I really wonder how effective it would be?

Nick

(Sigh) Bob, PSM is a valuable safety device. That is without dispute. When I bought my Cayenne a factory rep was there and told me never to disengage it unless there is a good reason to do so. Porsche would not make it mandatory on the Turbo unless they felt it was a good safety feature. Other car manufacturers would not equip their cars if they thought otherwise.

ABS an excellent safety device. The problem is people are not taught how to use it correctly. Most still pump the brake pedal when in fact they should be applying constant pressure.

Your argument that equipping a car with safety devices will make drivers more careless is sophistry to wit; "If you provide people safety features on products they will become careless and injury themselves. Better not to do so." Imagine what our world would be like if we took the approach. Do you give any thought of injury to others that are not using the product?

What is so bad about requiring a car manufacturer to make the car as safe as it can be given its power and the technology available? Is it you will lose a few seconds around a track? Is that enough to risk your and other lives?

BTW I do enjoy the dialogue with you and others.

pcar964

Yeah, let's force companies to do things "for the public good." People can't be trusted to make their own decisions right? People like you want the government to have control over everything because you think people are too stupid to take care of themselves.

How about car companies produce whichever kind of car they want, and I can choose to buy whichever car I want. It's none of the government's business.

gabbagabbahey

With an SUV'S higher center of gravity and extra weight it is more likely to roll in an emergency situation; clearly PSM is a good thing, but ruh rooh what are these miscreants doing :

https://rennlist.com/forums/cayenne-955-957-2003-2010/228660-psm-turned-off-wow.html

JasonAndreas

Actually a preliminary evaluation was performed in 2004 and the percent reduction in single vehicle crashes for passenger cars was 35% and 67% for SUVs with electronic stability control. The results from a larger study should be released this year and later this summer (August-ish?) a preliminary proposal for rulemaking will be posted by the NHTSA and after which electronic stability control will become mandatory in every vehicle sold in the USA (unfortunately it will take a few years for full compliance).

gabbagabbahey

PASM=Electronic control over the Bilstein shock valving for reducing pitch and roll, but not yaw(skid), which is what PSM (ESP) does, although clearly helping reduce pitch, roll and squat via PASM is synergistic for PSM.

fyi: Bosch info site on ESP, they are the OEM for many stability control systems:

go to ESP active for the "ESP live on the track" at the end says "No Car w/o ESP"

http://www.bosch-esperience.de/de/language2/index.html

http://www.bosch.com.au/content/language1/html/3401.htm

If the C-GT was going 120 to 150 mph, i.e. 176'-220'/s, there is precious little time to react, ESP or not. I'm guessing when the C-GT was being developed back in the late 90's, it was probably deemed not ready for C-GT or incompatible w LSD. IMO it is up to the consumer to learn about what they are buying and accept the risks inherit in such a high HP vehicle.

ESP is fantastic technology, I just don't want it forced on me.

Infiniti has a system called Lane Departure Warning system that uses a camera to locate lane markings and alert the driver when departing. Should there be a law requiring manufacturers to include this? Where do the mandates stop?

pcar964

Where do the mandates stop? They don't stop. Governments don't work that way - their influence and control becomes greater and greater over time, until either they crumble or the citizens revolt.

It's safer for all infants to be implanted with a microchip so children can be tracked more easily. That will become mandatory. It will save lives. Government knows best. Enjoy your Electronic Stability Control.

gabbagabbahey

A bit but . min 17.0 of this Gumball rally video seems to show an example of a sudden lift in a mid engine car. Does a Ferrari 360 have stability control?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...p+gear&pl=true

Other:

Min 6:40, putting a rear wheel off road and away goes a Cosworth.

Min 18:20, bumps in the road, off goes a viper, would ESP work a miracle here?

gabbagabbahey

, so what else besides yaw, i.e. skid, control does psm do? So why wasn't psm incorporated in the cgt?

O probably a repost, is this recent?

http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=44975

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=98891

Nick

It is my understanding that initially Porsche was not going to incorporate any stability devices in the CGT. It was only after W. Roehrl a co designer of the car crashed a couple of them and his insistence that some devices be installed.

BTW this car was built for racing and a corporate decision was made not to race it. They detuned the engine from over 800hp to 550 and then increased it to 610 for public sale.

Jeff, a 360 has 400 hp and the 430 480hp. The 430 has a manettino which allows the driver to dial in his safety for road conditions. Depending on the setting the the system can be very intrusive. The CGT power is substantially higher and TC just doesn't do enough to cover driver error.

BTW, it is rumored that the 997TT is faster sround the Hockheim track than the CGT. Also, its acceration to 62mph is faster. Certainly AWD plays a huge role in this but to discount the TT as a luxury cruiser misses the mark. It is a seriously fast car on the road and track. It is equipped with mandatoy PSM.

Sanjeevan

No,No,No,No...Bob,....how in the world would the owner be accountable for turning off the safety device. Was he trained on how the the car will behave if the device was turned off? Unless he was taken to a track and demonstrated what the car would do with these fancy new safety device turned off, I fail to see how he could be responsible. Why would a car company make such a dangerous life and death decision be only a simple push of a button away? how could this poor driver be made to make such an uninformed decision ? If the company realized the car NEEDED a safety device, then why would it make it so easy to turn it off?

Oh yeah, if he refuses to go to a track and was denied the sale, we can sue you too, and oh yeah if he trips and falls on the track ground or even worse happens to get scared on the track, you just forget about it,...now we have porsche, the dealer and the track facility. I love it.